Wendy St. John interview on the 2017 Tubbs Fire, April 6, 2023

Word. It is a little sad though. I mean, I'm, I miss teaching. Yeah, I know we all miss you. Um So this is kind of, it's kind of a casual interview. It's just kind of you explaining like um how, you know, the events that went on

and how you um how it affected you. Ok. So I'll just ask you some questions and then if you wouldn't mind just sharing. Um So we watched, we watched a documentary about it. Um And I know it was a long time ago. So if you can't

remember some things, I totally get that because some of the people I've interviewed are like, I don't remember everything. But if you can remember, we watched a documentary and a lot of people that were talking um talked about the night before and how weird like the

night before seemed. Do you have any, do you remember anything about that? So I don't think that I knew the night before. Well, so the night before, which night before do you mean? So for like various kind of milestones throughout the week? Yeah. So I think

it happened on a Monday, I believe. Right? So like that Sunday before I think it was like a middle of October, October or eighth. So, do you remember? Um I think the fire started on a Monday at like three or four in the morning. I wanna

say so, yeah, so I was not. So the first time that I became aware of it, it must have been then that Monday morning because it was funny, it was like, actually it might have even been in the middle of the night because I often stay

up really late doing stuff. And so I'm sending out emails and I had sent out an email to one of the other faculty members and she sends me back this message. That was kind of weird. She's like, why are you even asking me about stuff right

now? And I'm like, what? And she's like, there's a fire and I'm like, oh, well, and then she sent me, she sent me some photos she'd taken from her backyard and you could see like the, the glow on the other side of the hills. Wow. That's

when I was like, oh, a thing is going on and I didn't even realize it up until that point. And of course, then I'm like, oh, let's go online and find out and immediately like I found out. Oh, yeah. And classes are canceled and campus is

shut down and lots of people are evacuating depending on where you live. So that was, that was my first time that I realized that there was even an issue that it was already kind of started. Wow. So did Sonoma State send out like a, a wide

email? Mafia? Ok. Yeah, they sent out a whole bunch, they sent out a lot of different, you know, we, I feel like they communicated with us pretty well in terms of getting us. Um, there are like notifications on a regular basis. So, one of the things

for me too, that was interesting about that in particular is that where I live? I live basically do west of campus right near 101. And, you know, as the fires are burning and like going through Santa Rosa, you know, of course, obviously it's freaky. Like, I

personally naively would not have expected that to happen in the city. Right. We get like wildfires. Sure. Right. You live up in the hills, you know, that, that's possible. But like, in the city was weird. But in my brain, I always thought as long as the

no state's ok, there's no way the fire can get to me because the fire would have been coming from the east. And like, if it had hit campus, then I'd have been like, ok, now it's two miles away from me. I need to worry. But that

was so as long as I was getting those, those, um, um, notices from campus, I'm like, ok, campus is fine. Campus is fine. We're fine. That was my mindset. I don't know if that was real. Like, there's no reason that a fire couldn't have started closer

to me. And then, you know, but that was how I was justifying in my head being ok. Totally. Did you decide to evacuate at all or? No, we did not. So I live in and we were, we were, there was pretty early on, there was a

voluntary evacuation order and me and my kid decided no, that we did not want to do that. Um Just for a variety of logistical reasons. Um But that we were going to keep a really close eye on it and that we would get out if we

needed to. And then they lifted that, that even that voluntary order for and we never got another. We, so we were never under any kind of mandatory evacuation and we didn't, we chose not to vol and I'm glad that we chose not to voluntarily evacuate because

it, that just would have been this whole other layer of chaos. We did lose power for several days. So we were here at home without power. Wow. Did you here at home or did you ever go out at any point? We went out? So there's right

around the corner from us. There's this like, I don't know what to call it, even kind of a diner kind of thing. It's called smoke. And that they, it's just a restaurant and they had wifi. So we would go there to charge our devices and use

their wifi. Um And then we would come home, you know, because obviously we couldn't do that all the time. But then that would usually give us enough charge that we would then be able to use our devices for a while at home. Um But we spent

a lot of time, we did spend a lot of time there just because we could get, get food because we couldn't open our fridge as it is. I had to throw out. I don't know, a lot of food went bad out of my refrigerator in my

freezer. I had to throw basically everything out because I think we had, I think our power was out for four days. Wow. I think that might not be right. But that's my memory. It was a to, but I think it was closer to four. Wow. Oh,

my goodness. That's crazy. Yeah. So I did, when did you realize the severity of it? Like, were you keeping up with, like, the, the news on it? And yes. Yes. Absolutely. Keeping up with the news with it? I think, I mean, wildfires, I grew up in

California and wildfires are always a thing that we know happens. But I really never, to me it really literally was always like, oh, people who live out on the outskirts, out on the edges of things. Now having said that I do know people who live on

the outskirts of things. Right. And I think one of the, I think probably the thing that really hit me the hardest was finding out that one of the faculty members in our department had lost his home, the home burned down. They had to flee in the

middle of the night. And then his wife went back and she was working to, like, bring horses down and, like, save horses from dying up on the mountain and risking her own life and just like that kind of stuff. And I'm like, when I realize that

I'm like, oh my God, wait, we haven't heard from this guy. We haven't heard from this man. Where is he? What's happening? And then, yeah, he lost his home. Oh, my gosh. Well, now what's happening? And, um, you know, and of course, Doctor Sakaki, he lost

her home. You know, they had to run it. I don't know if, I mean, she, our recent president, you were? No. So she was the president up until this, this, this, this semester or this, this year, this academic year. But, you know, she had to flee

her home in the middle of the night, barefoot, you know, like in her pajamas because they didn't get the, the warning until like, the fires were actually at their doorstep. Wow. And so I'm hearing these stories and it is, it's terrifying and it's, but sorry, it's

ok. No, I'm, it's really terrifying and it's also like, oh shit, people I know people I know are suffering and homeless and, and in that moment it's just like all you care about is please everybody get out alive, right? And then afterwards you realize like a

lot of those people are super, can I cuss? Yes, but a lot of those people are super fucked because our society does not have any manner of safety net for making sure they really get the cost of their homes covered to rebuild. Or that if they

don't want to rebuild in an area that let's face, it is gonna burn again in the next 30 years. It's gonna burn again. Maybe not in the city, but Fountain Grove is gonna burn. It's gonna burn, it burned in the sixties. It's in a fire corridor

and they knew that when they built the neighborhood. So there should never have been a neighborhood built there in the first place. But the people who live there, what do you do? You can't afford to just abandon this property that's probably worth a million dollars even

without a house on it. Totally. And the government isn't gonna help, the government is not there to help us. You don't have that level of support from our government, in my opinion right now. Right. Certainly the people don't. Totally. So, it was really terrifying because on

the one hand I'm sitting here going, oh my God, what if the fire gets to us and I will say I was never afraid for my life because I knew that we had warning. We were always, I was always listening to the updates. I was like,

pretty much constantly, like, aware of what was going on and that things from ssu I knew that if, if we were in danger that we would have plenty of time to grab our stuff and go. And I did, I packed up this, I packed up the

car with like important stuff. It was kind of funny afterwards when, when it was all over and I unpacked my car. It was kind of funny to look at the stuff that I picked. I'm like, why did you pick these clothes? These aren't even your favorite

clothes? And like, what about all those, like, you grabbed a bunch of favorite photos, family photos but not the, and it was just funny to, like, see what my mindset was when I was like, what is this stuff? If I, if everything burns, what do I

want to have taken with me? Right. Um, and that was kind of interesting, but so I was never afraid that I was gonna die. Although I suspect that my kid, my kid was 19, I think at the time and I suspect that they were a bit

worried about maybe dying. Yeah. Um, and also actually now really kind of don't want to live here anymore. Yeah. Like they would really rather be living somewhere. Where we didn't have wildfires. That's not, I don't feel that way about this area. And I also, now just

in part of my brain I just have to accept and, you know, there could be another fire and, you know, next time it might be your house and, ok, you know, but where else do you go? There's something everywhere. Absolutely. I mean, California, I think a

lot of people that I spoke with even said they, they didn't really think it was that big of a deal at 1st 1st because California, we have fires. Like, you know, they always how bad they have fires. Totally. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It's just, this was the

first time for sure in my lifetime that I was aware of it coming so close to me. I mean, the finders came within, I, I think for sure, within three miles of my home, which sounds like a long way. And then also doesn't sound like, oh,

yeah. You know, when you think about, like, a change of wind, you know, you and I, for example, and I know somebody who lives up at the Fairfield Osborne Preserve, that's her job and she lives there. And I'm like, oh, my God, what if she can't,

like, I was literally afraid she could die if she couldn't get down the hill because now roads are being closed. So not only can people, you know, II, I wasn't even sure she'd be able to get out and it turns out that Osborne didn't burn, that

was fine. Other places did for sure. You know, and then you hear all these stories of, of, of real heroism and things that people were doing and that is both heartbreaking and kind of inspiring at the same time. Absolutely. You know. But so I wasn't ever

afraid that I was going to die, but I did not have confidence that everything I owned wouldn't get burned up. Yeah. I really did think that was possible. And let's be honest, it was possible. Yeah. You know, it was, yeah. And the thing that's, I guess

the thing that I find interesting, annoying, sad. I don't even know what to call it. But that, like, you know, kind of like you said, like we didn't think it was that big of a deal. And I think that now I think I, I'm gonna suspect

that those of us who were here then that it is a big deal and will always be, but that you don't really understand that until you've lived through it. Not that people can't have empathy or sympathy. Right. But that, what I'm getting at is that the

reason that it burned, the reason that this happened isn't because, like, nature is scary. It's because we did stupid stuff. It's because we have mismanaged our wild lands for a very long time and if we could do better, if we could stop suppressing fires in the

wild land so that the, there's like a more natural pattern of some places, a little bit of stuff burns every year. So then that it's hard for a lot of fuel to build up and a massive devastating fire to come through. But I'm not sure that

we learned that lesson. That was the lesson that we should have learned in 2017. And I don't think that we have and we all should have told PG need to fuck, write off and be and own up to what they did because they are also liable

for miss not maintaining their equipment properly in areas where we know Dam. And so now the stop gap is sometimes we just get our power randomly shut off because they're trying to make sure that stuff doesn't burn. I'm like, how do y'all bury the power lines?

Yeah. And how about we just actually be smart and also how about you pay that however many millions of dollars fine that was levied against you. And then the government said, oh yeah, well, we recognize the PG name was at fault, but they don't actually have

to pay. What? Why can we not hold corporate America a accountable because that's what it is. It's capitalism, it's capitalism and we're not willing to make choices that cost anybody any extra money anywhere, even if it's stupid. And then everybody else pays the price. Everybody pays

the price for it down the road. So, and I'm just really frustrated. I was so frustrated to find out that they're building all the, all those houses are being rebuilt up and it's gonna burn again. I need to burn. There is no way that it won't.

Yeah, I live, um, I live in, like, the Larkfield area there. The neighborhood right next to me burned down. And my roommate literally asked me. I'm from, um, more like SOCAL area where, um, well, uh San Lu. So I guess I, but so south from here,

um, but fires happen there too but nothing like nothing like this. Um So she asked me if we could get fire fire insurance and I was like, I guess so, like, I really didn't think much of it but her dad's house actually burned down. So she's,

you know, she's scared and right. So, so I got the insurance. But yeah, it's just crazy because it could very likely burn down again. All of these houses are rebuilt, but it's like, I don't know if that was a good idea. No, it was definitely not

a good idea because this is the problem that we get into as humans. We do make a lot of impacts on the planet and we also think that we can control everything and that's the mistake. We can't, we can suppress fire for a little while. We

can keep forest fires from burning here and there. But we can't actually change the fire regime of the whole ecosystem, we just can't. And when we try to, and then it backfires, the problem is it's, it's not just that it backfired and like, oh, we kept

it from burning for a while, but then eventually it burned. No, we kept the natural sys, we disrupted the natural system. So that meant that when it did burn, it was so much more devastating than just a normal pattern of wildfires would have been like we

created a massive firestorm of just fuckery. And we're not, I just don't see that. We've learned the lesson. Yeah, I don't see that. We've learned the lesson. We're just going back and making the same mistakes. I think there's more awareness of it now. Yeah. But it

needs to not just be people understanding, it needs to be people who have the, the financial capacity to actually make changes to do that. Totally. Yeah. I don't know if they're going to, there are more fires after. Right. There's been, yeah, we had fires in 2018.

We had fires in 2019. I don't remember a bad 20. I think there was a 2020 fire season that wasn't super near here. But, you know, 2019 we lost a week of instruction because campus was closed, not because of the fires were near, but because there

was so much smoke, I think from fires and Lake County. Right. Yeah. So we lost a week of instruction in 2019 as well. Um, and we just, I feel like we just know that it's gonna happen. And that was what was interesting about the 2019, was

that the cave fire? I don't remember all the different fires. But the thing that was interesting to me in my brain is I thought, ok, 2017, everything burned, we're gonna be safe for a while. But guess what, there was some stuff that actually burned again the

very next year. So we're not safe. Uh, yeah, we're not safe and it is, it is scary. And like I said, I don't, I, even, now I don't worry about being burned up in a fire where I live. I will always have plenty. Now that I

say that knock on wood. Right. I should have plenty of warning before a fire would get to me where I live in the middle of cotati right next to the freeway. Right. That's like not an area that people aren't gonna notice that there's a fire. But

what do we do? What do we do about it? We need to change? We need some big infrastructure changes and I just don't know if we're gonna do it. Yeah, we're kind of stupid. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I totally agree. Um, so can I ask, um,

when you did go back to, um, campus when things were, you know, you were allowed to go back? How did, did it feel different at all? Did anything change or did you just jump right back into the correct. Y no, it was totally different. It was

totally different. Um OK. I'm gonna say some things that may not sound, that may make me sound kind of like I'm a monster. But one of the things that I noticed that really bothered me a lot is that I had students coming to me saying, oh

my God, I'm really upset. We really like, can we please just not have exams for the rest of the semester? Things like that. And like, and I get it and I was actually also in a place where I'm like, yeah, you know what? We can cut

back on some of the academic rigor because because we are all experiencing PTSD at the very least totally. But you know, a couple of the students who were the most like, oh my God, I can't cope. Oh my God, I can't believe. And then they would

come complain to me. This professor isn't even changing your syllabus. What a monster. And I'm like, but who are you? You actually this was a person who had transferred to the university that year. You literally had never lived in county before. And I'm like, excuse me,

you don't even have the connection. It's like I felt like faculty were expected to like, do all of this emotional support for our students and nobody was there trying to do emotional support for us. We live here all the time. A lot of our students don't

and that's not to say that students weren't impacted. Obviously, if you were here, you were impacted, right? Or if you knew people here, you were impacted. But I just felt like we, I got put in the position of having to do a lot of like mental

health care and coddling and, and talking students down and nobody did that for us. Right. We have a much more, I have a clear connection to this community. I've lived here for, you know, more than a dozen years. Yeah. But where was the support for us?

And that was something that bothered me. And I'm always happy. I think, you know, that, I think people who have me, they know that I care about students and I am more than happy to try to do whatever I can to make things. Ok. Yeah. Absolutely.

And somebody needs to do that for faculty. Yeah, definitely. The same thing is true for COVID. The same exact thing happened in COVID. We are being asked, oh, students, you need to watch out to make sure none of your students are suicidal. Who's watching to make

sure I'm not suicidal. Not that I was, but I'm saying that is a burden. Yeah. It's not part of my job. I am not trained how to do it. I don't, I don't know that I could, I can be empathetic. Totally. Somebody comes to me, I'll

talk to them but it should not be my responsibility to do mental health care for this group of people that I am not qualified to do that. And that was something that really bothered me coming back. Yeah, I felt like a lot of faculty were criticized

for like, oh, yeah, when this faculty member just like she just like, didn't even, she wasn't even there for, she canceled her office hours. I'm like you realized that we were also all traumatized. A lot of us did evacuate. A lot of us really didn't know

if our home, oh, some of us lost our homes. Yeah. Like, and I felt like there wasn't a two way street of empathy in. So this is a by and by no means everybody, a lot of students were, like, right there with us but there was

this, like, kind of group of students that I felt like, were being really entitled in a way that was kind of gross and not, they, they just didn't get it and I think it's because some of them aren't from here. Yeah. Do you think they were

kind of trying to use it to their advantage to get out of things to? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit. And that was really obnoxious. You know, when I'm talking about, here's a professor. Oh, yeah. I, I know. I don't, I don't remember hearing anybody complaining

about this man but, like, he's probably not coming to school because he doesn't actually have a house. Yeah. Right. He's now living in a motel in Petaluma or whatever. You know. And, yeah, but I just felt like on the whole, there was like, there was a

real strong wave of support at first Sonoma. Strong. Right. You know, our love is stronger than the, than the love is thicker than the smoke or whatever. Which, and I feel like that there was a truth to that. There was a reality to that. But then

it goes away and it starts being about like me, me, me, me, how do I make sure that I have what I need and how can I game the system if I need to and not, not everyone by any means, right? I don't want to make

it sound that way. But it was something that I noticed then and I think part of the reason that it's so clear to me is because then we did also see it again in COVID faculty. I don't think a lot of people have any concept of

how much fucking work it was to transition to going teaching online. I can't even imagine it was a monumental amount of work that we did not get paid more. We got a little bit after the fact, we got a little bit of like a little bonus

thing. Yeah, you know, and, and students are complaining and all this and I'm like, you know, we're busting our asses and also scared about COVID two. Yeah. Like, so I feel like sometimes there's this moment where the emotional needs of everybody in the community are not

always considered and that we preferentially, like, look at the emotional needs of certain people more than others. And that makes me not that happy. It doesn't, it doesn't feel good. Yeah. It doesn't feel good. I mean, you're a person too. It's like, I mean, I see

a therapist at Sonoma State and I always remind myself that she probably sees a therapist too. Like I come with my problems but she has her own problems. So we all have to be mindful of everyone. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And just recognize also like that, maybe

we can cut each other's slack sometimes. I mean, students and I am, I'm usually willing to cut slack. Right. I'm usually willing to work with people and I would hope that students would also be willing to work with me if I have an issue. If something

happens where I can't teach my class for one day, don't slag me off. How about let's work together and how to show some empathy for me as well. Um, so, you know, it was just, I don't know, but it was, it was a very intense time.

There were challenges to it. It was very isolating because, you know, we really weren't able to communicate with the outside world very much because of the lack of power. And then afterwards I I mean, we literally, there literally is PTSD, like the smell of smoke. I

think it's better now, but for sure, for the first two years, any time, like, somebody's having a barbecue, I'm like, whoa, there's smoke. Where's the fire? Where is it? I needed to know. You know, and, and just, you know, feeling like that was so funny is

like with COVID wearing masks, well, we were already wearing masks because of the, because of the smoke and people who weren't wearing masks. I'm like, you're stupid. But at least in that case they were just harming their own health, not actually putting other people at risk

totally. But it was, it was, it was brutal. Yeah, it was absolutely brutal. And it's funny because, like, now, like, however many years on what is, oh, my gosh. Was it really? 2017? Yeah. Six years, man. That's a long time ago. And it doesn't seem like

a long time. It honestly seems like it could have been last year. Wow. You know, and now every year, like, fire season is a scary thing. Yeah. What's gonna burn this year? Is something gonna burn? Is it gonna be near me? Is it gonna be somebody?

I know. Um, and it makes it scary to live here and I love Sonoma County. I don't, yeah, you're like, I chased away by the fires. Yeah. You know, my job is here. My home is here, you know, this is a community that I care about.

Yeah. But it is scary. Totally. How's, how's your, your son doing? You know? Ok. Ok. I think every time that fire season comes around it's like, wow. I wish we didn't live here. Yeah. Wow. I wish we could be somewhere else. But, yeah, that's not it.

That's, there's other anxiety issues going on there. Um, it's exacerbated but I can't, I can't say, ok, just, just drop it. I can't say you're, you're imagining things. I can't say you're really being overly pessimistic because it's not true. Right? The fire, fire is a genuine

risk. Yeah, it is a genuine risk. And where I am, I don't worry about my own home as much as I do about other places. But hey, you know what, the people in Coffee Park probably thought the same thing. Right. So, totally, do you feel like

Sonoma State is better equipped now with, if it were to happen again? Do you think they've made any changes? That's a good question. I don't, I don't know that I think we've made changes. I'm not sure that we needed to. I honestly felt like the response

to the fires to me felt pretty good. OK. It felt pretty good. I didn't feel like there was the little things I was complaining about like, oh, emphasis on making sure your students are emotionally. Ok? Like that was the thing, right? But in terms of the

way they notified us the way that they, you know, sort of really, kind of, I felt like they did, I felt like they did a pretty good job. So I don't, I don't feel like there was maybe a lot of the system, system wide things that

would need to change. Maybe other people have a different take. But I was not angry about the way the university handled things. Ok. Good. Good. Which is not always true with respect to COVID. But um yeah, I did not feel that there was a problem with

the way the university handled things. Ok. Good. Well, um that's pretty much all I have for you. I so appreciate you talking to me and I'm glad that you made me aware of how you as faculty feel, you know, because that's totally valid. So I never

do anything to help you. Let me know. And again, it was such a small number of students. It was a very small number of students that is frustrating because I feel you put so much pressure on teachers to like, I don't know, just we gotta be

on. Yeah. And it's, yeah, it's only about the students like, but you got people too with feelings and you were there, you lived it too. So. Exactly. You have the trauma. And I think honestly, I will always believe that faculty experience as a whole, more trauma

than students experience because we're the ones who live here, our whole lives. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of pressure to, I don't know, make it have a smooth transition but it's like you are still a person and you have your own lives and you,

and you're experiencing trauma. Yeah. Yeah. And that was the thing, that was the only thing I guess I would say in terms of the way the university responded. I don't appreciate the, hey, and here are some resources for how you can get better at emotion, supporting

your students. Like I think that's inappropriate messaging. Yeah, I think the message should be if your students are struggling suggest to them that they go to caps and that they get but that they, that they get help. Absolutely. We want our students to get mental health

care, but not for me, I'm not a trained mental health care professional. Totally. I'm an empathetic person to talk to, but I'm not trained and it's, I'm not getting paid for it, which is like and be all, you know, I, I do lots of work I

don't get paid for, but I think it's problematic when that's the university's message. Like, hey, here's a whole another big thing of workload. We're gonna jump on the faculty and just see what we gonna do. That's, that's a problem that should change totally. And that's your

teacher. You didn't go the counseling route. You know, I mean, again, you are empathetic and you, you know, you have feelings too, but that's not exactly what you're doing. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that coming from as a message from campus is not, not great. Totally.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. This was all. Yeah, thank you so much, Wendy. I really think about it. We miss you. Yeah, I know, I miss all of you too. I miss all of you too. So it was great to be able to chat with you

a little bit and thank you very much for sure. Ok, thank you and thank you for signing the form. You're more than welcome. Awesome. Well, you have a good rest of your day. Ok, thanks. You too, Amy. Thank you. Bye bye.