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Hello. Uh We are here from Sonoma County um with Barra Tobin today to record an oral history for the hearing. Queer Sonoma County project. Um Thank you, Barbara for joining us today. I understand you wanted to speak about your experience of parenting here in Sonoma County.

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Yeah. Um I feel like I was part of a uh a movement that was happened. Uh I think about 1989 or so. Um my partner um cast and I uh were thinking about having a family. Um My, I would be the one to carry the baby

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and um we were looking around in the county talking with other lesbians. There really wasn't much organized around the idea of uh lesbian parenting by choice. There were some lesbians that had kids from when they had been with men and then um came out as lesbians,

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but uh parenting by choice, there was a couple of families that were very quietly doing it. But anyway, so I found uh I co-founded a group with uh another lesbian named Linda Steinberg about um uh for lesbians who are considering parenthood. That's where our starting place

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was. So, um we sort of just talked it, you know, talked it up among others and uh ended up with a group of probably about six or eight women who were wanting to get pregnant and some of them were partnered and some of them were single

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and we gave ourselves the name the Lavender Stork Society and um shared, you know, resources with, you know, sperm banks versus using friends uh versus uh and then using a sperm bank. some sperm banks had what were called known donors where the offspring could meet the

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donor once they turned 18 versus anonymous donors and the pluses minuses. Anyway, sharing all that and looking for doctors at that time, that would consider doing the insemination because um some doctors were very against it, you know, very homophobic or whatever. So, um anyway, um within

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the group, uh many of us used a sperm bank in San Francisco that was in the Castro that was obviously very uh supportive of gay and lesbian families. And um so I was actually the first one in the group to get pregnant. So our daughter was

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born um in December of 1990. Uh and um then others started uh getting pregnant having kids, one lesbian, had twins and, and the group, the Lavender Store Society then kind of evolved into um a support group for lesbian families with their Children, which maybe, you know,

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a lot of them were about the same age young and they grew up, but it was at that time in the early nineties in Sonoma County, it was, we felt it was really important that our kids knew that they weren't the only ones with two moms.

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Uh, because it was still again, very unusual and, um, homophobic teachers and P T A s and this and that. And so, um, we would meet once a month with the kids and do, you know, picnics and have Easter egg hunts and, you know, uh Super

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Bowl parties and all kinds of stuff just again. So our kids could know that they were, they were just as normal as kids who had a mom and a dad. So that was the Lavender Stork Society, an amazing organization. Um And yeah, it sounds like you

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really fostered a local sense of community, um, for your Children and those other families. Yeah. Um, how long is 11th Historic Society still around? No, I think, you know, as the kids got older and that, so they went in different directions with their interests. It kind

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of faded away. I think there might be some meet up groups that are uh, lesbian families and stuff. But I don't think there's, uh, you know, anything official anymore, but then if, uh, it's related to being lesbian parents in Sonoma County, um, at that time, the

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state did, you know, did not recognize that a child could have a parent, two parents of the same gender. And, um, what had happened uh in the county was, there was a couple whose daughter was probably about six or seven years older than ours. So born

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in the mid, early, mid eighties, that lesbian couple split up and the non biological mom lost all legal rights to that child. Um And in, and in fact, the biological mom, you know, basically said that the non biological mom could not visit the child and it

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got really ugly. It was an ugly divorce. And so there was a movement um, among us to try and figure out how to get legal rights for the non biological parent. So, uh we worked with an attorney, three coup three of us, couples with small Children,

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worked with one attorney to um try and get what's called second parent adoption. So like step parent families. So, um hetero families, you know, if there's uh a step parent involved, the they can become the legal parent. So we went through the process, but the state

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at that time, the state of California said, uh, no, you can apply for the, the non biological parent can apply for adoption. But, um, you're gonna go through stranger adoption, is it? So my partner who'd been with me two years before I even got pregnant, we

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had been through the whole process, the birth, the, you know, we were a family, she was treated like she was adopting a child from overseas. And so we went through the whole thing, we had home visits from um, state social workers. We had to all get

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background checks, fingerprinted, we had to get references and all of this stuff and we knew what was gonna happen initially, which was the social worker said yes, it's a very fine home, but I cannot approve the adoption because they're an unmarried couple. Now, in the early

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nineties, we couldn't be married. We were, we were the same gender. We couldn't be married in California or anywhere else in the United States. So we knew that was gonna happen. And our attorney then um, had planned that we would go to court here in Sonoma

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County to family court to ask the judge to over overrule what the um, state social worker had recommended. So we waited until a favorable judge was on family court. Um Arnie Rosenfeld and um, went before him and he very matter of factly said, you know, I

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approve of this adoption request. And, um, so my wife and I were the first um couple in Sonoma County to have second parent adoption. Our daughter has had two legal moms since she was two years old. So we were very proud of that. It was very

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exciting. Hear that. Yeah, you were successful and then I forget if you said it initially. But um, was there a specific reason you chose Sonoma County as the place to start your family or? Well, that, um, we, we had been here for a little while I,

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uh, it really was sort of, or just where we found ourselves. But Sonoma County was a, uh, there were, it had a very strong lesbian community, I would say, you know, other than San Francisco, um, it was really, even in the eighties a, a great place

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to live. If you were a lesbian, there was a lot going on and a lot of support and the community the, that he community was pretty for that time was, you know, supportive and accepting. Overall, we didn't run into bigotry and, and uh challenge as much.

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Um So we felt like it was a good place to raise a family and we cast my wife and I um really felt like the even the public schools were safe enough place to, you know, that we weren't gonna experience a lot of bigotry and, and

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that, that was our experience and some of the lesbian families that we knew chose um private schools, Montessori or Waldorf and, and that kind of thing to kind of protect their kids from um homophobia. But CASS and I have always felt like we are fine and

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if someone in the outer world has a problem with it, it's not our problem, you know, it's they can deal with it. So we were in P T A and we were in the soccer and we were in brownies and girl scouts and we just acted

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like, you know, we, we're a family just like everybody else. It's not a big deal and, you know, occasionally we'd run into people, other parents that, you know, a few would act like they didn't know what to do about us. But nobody told us we couldn't

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be there or, you know, made a fuss about us. So we've had, we overall, I'd say we've had a really good experience in Sonoma County being an out lesbian family. I don't know. That's really amazing to hear that. Uh Even in the early nineties, this community

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was already pretty clear or at least had a strong uh lesbian community um there. Um Yeah. Yeah. So, um do you think there was unique, like a support systems in place then because of that? Uh because like you're right being a parent is already a challenge,

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it's already finding the school, you know, making sure you're active in all the community and then add on top of that just trying to make sure everyone else knows your family is just like everyone else. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it was systems support systems per

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se as much as just the, the individual players, you know, I mean, I just think that um the lesbians that we met and hung out with were pretty active and willing to be out, you know, I the coming out days, you know, the year that in

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the eighties and nineties that, that was a really, I think there is AAA lot of validity to that, that the most important way to get support is to be out and not feel ashamed or uncomfortable about who we were. And that was just kind of the

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ethos of the people that I hung out with and what we were doing. So, yeah, trying to think of a, do you think this, uh, I guess, have you believed situ situation, the situation has improved for parenting, lesbian parents or other queer parents in Sonoma County

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in the year since? Um I would, I would think so. I mean, I if nothing else um with, when California first made marriage legal before it happened on a national level um that included automatic co parent ship. So the nonbiological uh parent automatically got all the

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rights as a parent so that, you know, I think was a big step forward since then. Um One other thing that I did early on that um after I had our daughter was um I got trained as a doula. Um And for those who don't know,

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a dola is a birth support person. Um not on the medical level like a midwife, but uh trained to know the whole birth process, but to be the interface between the laboring mom and the hospital or the other family members and to, and to help support

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everybody in the process because I real there were lesbians having babies in straight hospitals that were not having great experience from hospitals, little staff and, and that kind of thing and I saw a real need. So, um I, I ended up doing some classes for pregnant

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lesbians about um what, you know, sort of childbirth classes, but also more about how to um ideas and support for navigating when you're in the medical system, how to get what you need and get the support you need. So, um that I did that for a

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couple of years but, um, I don't know if anybody's doing that now or if they, you know, again, I'm not sure there's a big need anymore because people, we're not the first anymore. People have gotten the medical world or I think people have pretty much gotten

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over the idea that there's any big difference here where we're people having babies and we're families and, you know, that's that. So, at least around here. Yeah, they, they, they definitely understand that. Um, and then Stuart, do you have any questions you'd like to ask as

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well? Stewart's muted. I can see that. Oh, sorry, I was muted. Um, one thing I was really interested in, it's really amazing. Kind of the journey that you had to go through and really, uh, push ahead yourself with very limited. I mean, you had support in

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the, from friends but you really had to kind of carve your own path. And I wonder, um, what it was like from your, or, uh, it was your daughter? You had a daughter, did you say Yeah. What was it like for her growing up and having,

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you know, same sex parents and, uh, you know, you did have public school, you talked a little bit about how some of your, um, friends or other couples, uh, were going into more like private or charter schools. Uh, what was it like to have a young

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child and be in that space and, uh, have her, uh, adjusting to a situation that not a lot of, not a lot of other kids would be in. Yeah. Well, that's a good question. You know, our, I think for Cora, our daughter, um she, she just

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kind of took it on, you know, it's like I have two moms and, and that's that, that, that we tell a story. One story was when she was like three and, and she and her other mom CASS were out at the park and this little girl

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comes up to Cora and says, you know, well, that's your mom. Where's your dad? And Cora says, I don't, I don't need a dad. I have two moms. She just, she just thought this is, this is fine. Why would I need anything else? So, um and

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in fact, when, and then when she was a, a six year old and a, a brownie and she wanted to go to overnight girl scout camp. So, um she, she, we found one for her and we're getting ready to, she didn't know anybody there and we

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were getting ready to put her on the bus, take her to camp and we, so by the way, you know, Cora, not everybody possibly is gonna think that it's great that you have two moms. So, you know, you might wanna just wait and get to know

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your, your mates before you announce that. You know, we, we felt like we needed to be the ones to tell her about the potential homophobia out there because she wasn't experiencing it as far as we could tell. So, you know, that's kind of just been her

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life is that uh she, she's just rolled with it and assumed that she was normal and um if other people were having trouble with it, that, you know, that wasn't her. So that's wonderful. It sounds like a um very much your mentality as a person regarding

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being a lesbian, being an LGBT Q person in this community really helped shape the way she moved in the world too, even from a young age. Yeah, thank you. I, I, I hope that that's made a difference. Um She, we used a donor, this is just

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sort of an aside but uh we used a donor from um a sperm bank that was the donor was willing to meet his offspring once they turned 18. And um and she has not been interested in meeting him either. You know, she's, she says that, you

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know, I'm comfortable with my family. I, I don't need more. Plus she's got a lot of extended family for me. So she has all the family she wants. So, yeah, here and I guess it just said, you know, the, the important thing isn't whether your family

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is, you know, mom and dad, mom, mom, dad, dad, it's just that they love you and support you. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Well, we are coming up on time. Is there any other final details you'd like to add for this oral history? No, I think that's, that's

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all I'd like to share. If you think of any other questions or things, I'm more than happy to chat some more.