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let's take our minds off Watergate for a change. It's time to talk about wine from cBS FM Crosstalk and this is Jonathan word. We have a guest today? Who's Oh goodness! That it's always a terrible problem. You do so many things. It's hard to introduce you.

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Why don't you introduce yourself this time? Why should I do all the work? Well, there are so many things I'm doing Jonathan that I don't really know which comes first, but I think primarily I am food and wine editor of esquire. Perhaps that's the job I

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enjoy as much or more than any other. But I'm also on radio with Jonathan Ward, I'm very proud of that. I also write for house Beautiful. I also write for Gourmet for Playboy and I write books this year. I'm writing three books, which I've decided is

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much too much and all of those books will be written under the name of small fanfare in the background Roy Andres de group, welcome again, marvelous pronunciation, john well it's, it's practice or left over from a previous show. Um Last let's see, where were we? It

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was only about a year and a half ago. Um or maybe eight months ago, something like that. We're talking about wines. We're talking about french wines a lot has happened since then in the wine business back then. You say that again? Back then, you could afford

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wine, but now everything is just priced completely out of the market or is that, is that a falsehood? Have I exaggerated there? No, I think you haven't. I think there is, there is one basic thing that has happened and that is that all over the world,

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and particularly in the United States, the thirst for wine has suddenly exploded. I mean literally people have discovered wine in an enormous way and especially the enormously thirsty and enormously large american throat has discovered wine. And what has happened is that the world's supply of wine

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has just succumbed to the, to the old theory of supply and demand. There isn't enough supply at the moment for the demand. And wine is not like automobiles where you can just put in some new machines and double your plant space and get bigger production. When

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you plant a vine, vine is a living thing. It's a, it's a, it's a form of farming when you plant a vine, it takes you five years before you get adequate grapes from that fine. So although vintners and growers are planting grapes all over the world

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and especially in California, the The situation in California is fantastic. I mean, the figures are that there are now 137,000 acres of vines in California that will be almost doubled in the next five years. I mean last year alone, they planted 50,000 new acres of vines

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in California, California, I think is probably the one place in the world where there is this enormous possibility of expansion in France. There is not the possibility of expansion, there is there is not the land, you can't grow wine grapes on every piece of land. It's

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quite limited the temperature, it's quite a narrow belt of temperature in the world. And so there just isn't enough wine for all the people who want it yet. I see some new french wines that I've never heard of before in the stores now, I haven't really

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run into pinot noir spelled P I N O E N W A R R but I expect that. Yes. Well, the fact is that there were a lot, there are a lot of wines in France that nobody's ever heard of here before. Uh as you know,

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a vast amount of wine in France, particularly from the media and from the south never got into bottles at all. It went straight from the vineyards into barrels and from the each little bistro as you know in France. Uh used to have its little barrel standing

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in the corner and the waiter, when you ordered a carafes of rouge of red or white wine, went and filled the jug from the barrel that is what is known as the or DNA or in France and nobody ever drank that outside France. And now, all

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of a sudden, absolutely. Now it's all being put into fancy bottles and having very fancy, highly colored labels put on it and it's being brought over here as french bistro wines or spanish country wines and so on. So that from from knowing thinking of french wines

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in the past as chateau lafite and chateau Latour were suddenly finding a flood of these very ordinary, simple wines which are alright, but they're not what we think of as the old style of french wine. So those are flooding in now from spain from Germany, from

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France, from chile, from Australia and so on. Meanwhile, of course in California they're expanding enormously. And I must say now that I personally think that for medium priced wines, California is doing extremely well. But then new york state is doing well. Ohio has a number of

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new wines now, michigan and of course there's the great question mark of the Yakima Valley in Washington state. In the Yakima Valley has marvelous weather. I don't mean to push the issue, but it seems to me that if you had a choice of buying a wine

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from California or a wine from France that it would probably a cheap, let's say a bistro type of wine that would be bad. The wine from California. No question because otherwise you're paying for for freight or whatever they ship that poor stuff in and it would

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just seem more logical. Oh, I think there's no question about that. I think I could sit down with you for a couple of hours and give you blind tastings of bottles and I think nine times out of 10 between a french or spanish or german wine

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or italian one on one side and the California on the other on the same price level. I mean in the $2 bracket, in the 2 50 bracket, I think nine times out of 10 you would prefer the California wine. I'm pretty sure you would. They, they

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have a technique in California. Of course they they they have the basic american, endless american, know how on, on technique, on technology. They have developed the question of refrigerating the fermenting vats now. So that's a slow down the fermentation. In the hot California summer. They are

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finding new ways of planting the grapes, new ways of harvesting them automatically so that when it comes to producing a mass wine, California is unquestionably at the top while in France. They've had 1000 years of the little vintner making his own little small quantity of wine

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in his own way, using, using his head rather than a machine to help him and that no longer works with the demand. That was all right, as long as there was a small demand. But now the french for instance have taken the district of Cobiella, which

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is the great middle middle of France where there are literally tens of thousands of acres of medium price, medium to low priced wines where one used to tour through the core area and taste a different wine in every, in every vineyard that one went to now,

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they've all been put together in a great mass blending and the cobia that comes to this country is nowhere near as interesting or as varied in character as the Cobia one used to get in France. This is a problem. Mass vilification is a great problem. It's

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a, it's a problem that we run into in just about every aspect of our lives. I think so. Yes. I think, I think we talked about that last time, once the conglomerate gets in there. I want to know why they took the dating code off the

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christian Brothers wine bottles that used to come in very handy. Well, I think they found that too many people knew it. They either had to decide to print the date on the label or or find some new way. I maybe it's now the number of bubbles

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in the glass in the bottle. I don't know, but suddenly it's disappeared. It's too bad because it was nice to know whether it had been in the half gallon jug for a year or so because it has a tendency to get a little softer. Yes, I

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think that's true. Yes, I think that's true. But now I think christian brothers and al Midan and United is all moving so fast. I don't think that anything stays in a jug for more than a month now. Maybe it would be a good idea if we,

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we bought cases of half gallons and just let them sit around for a while, maybe six months or so, depending on our living quarters just to round off a little bit if we're using that for table wine, I think that applies to red wines. I'm not

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sure that it applies to white very much. I think it is important when you open the bottle Jonathan that you should not leave a gallon bottle sort of three quarters one quarter empty. I think as soon as you open a gallon jug, it is essential to

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have five ordinary fifth bottles to pour it into because if you have a certain amount of air at the top of the jug, you're going to oxidize the wine a little bit and that is going to take away its its its sharpness, it's refreshing sharpness so

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that as soon it, once you've had your gallon jug for one meal, then empty it into ordinary sized bottles and fill them right up to the top and then cook them and then keep them in the refrigerator or something like that. And then I think the

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wine keeps much longer that apply to white wines too. I think so yes, I think so too. Oh yes, especially a half a half empty gallon jug of white wine will lose a little of its edge even in a week, even in the refrigerator because the

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air on top is going to intermingle with the wine. You see I guess that's especially important with some of the the white wines that have a little spritz, a little tingle, Makes them so good in the summer. But apart from that I think gallon jugs is

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an awfully good way of buying wine. I I always have one gallon of red and one gallon of white available at home. Always. You mean you don't drink shot to pop or Lafite rothschild all the time. Great gourmet like you know, I certainly don't, but I

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don't, but I don't buy mass wines. I find that there are marvelous, marvelous wines. I'm going to write an article for esquire one of these days suggesting perhaps 25 low priced wines, medium to low priced wines which are quite marvelous. Let me give you an example

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if I may to show you what is happening in the center of France. A little to the east of Toulouse. There is a marvelous valley called the valley of the Low L. O. T. The Lowe River. And there there has been a wine, oh it's one

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of the oldest wines of France called cow, a C. A. O. R. S. And cow was at the time of louis the 14th was the wine drunk by the king. It was the most prestigious wine of France long before chateau lafite had ever been heard of.

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And it was, it is also today still the uh the the official wine of the Scandinavian of the Swedish court because some few generations back, one of the Swedish kings married a girl from co now this wine was made in a very old fashioned way up

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to World War Two, it was, it was almost black in color. It was vilified slowly and inefficiently. And then during the, the end of World War Two, when the, when the french and american armies landed on the south coast of France worked their way up to

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the north, fighting the Germans all the way that the valley of the Low was totally destroyed. And so they replanted with better vines after the war and they brought in modern verification methods. And today the cow wine is just beautiful and it's selling in this country.

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I mean, don't tell a soul Jonathan, let's not tell anybody it's selling for about 2 55 a bottle. And it's a lovely light fruity red wine. Now, that's that's a discovery that the famous old wines of Co. Are now coming to this country. Not yet in

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very large quantities, but, but I think they will come in fairly substantial quantities. That's a lovely wine. But but then there is, there is only this week I I drank a new wine put out by Al Midan called grimoire G R E N O Ir, which

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is simply a contraction of the green ash noir. The black grapes, which Al Midan has brought over here is planted in the casinos vineyards and is a delightfully light ish sort of beaujolais type wine that's made here in United States. What I'm saying really is that

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everywhere the new technology is producing better wines at lower prices. Thank God for that, because just as Lafayette takes off into the stratosphere, fortunately, the technicians, the chemists, the technicians are finding ways of making better wines more cheaply. Well, there's a limit to that. You still

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have to let the little uh, creatures in the wine do all the work for you and you have to give them some time in which to do it. If somebody comes up with a process for turning out a bottle of finished wine in three hours, I'm

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gonna stare at him and order a truck too, back over him a couple of times or something like that, Get him on the future file right away and tear him to pieces can be done. There's no doubt it can't be done. A certain amount of aging

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is necessary. That's good to know something, something should not be totally subject to technology, you are totally reactionary. Mr, you're against progress. There's so much of it around, there's so much of it to be against. Um, what other things can we talk about? We've talked about

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wines a little bit. Any new cheeses that you've run across that we should know about. Well, I think there, there is also a new technology, new technology of course, but I know, I think there are new developments, I think developments in the american taste, I'm delighted

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to find that some of the blander cheeses are falling in their sales volume, uh, that, uh, that the manufacturers and particularly in the american manufacturers in Wisconsin who have, as we all know, been imitating european types for a long time and now developing some of their

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own. And I think gradually the idea of bland cheeses is, I hope in the next 10 or 15 years will fade away more and more and more take as an example, one is allowed to talk about anything I think with you, isn't there is this, there

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is this famous cheese in France called lavash Keary, the cow that the laughing cow and it has a lovely colored label on it and it is a fairy story in France. This is a cheese that sells, sells millions of kilos in France. Not because any grown

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up likes it, but because the Children love it. I mean they love the fairy stories and now it's being brought over to this country and it's being very smoothly marketed. But it seems to me with the wrong approach. I mean it's here, it's being sold as

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if it were the world's most marvelous cheese for cocktail parties and for everything. I think, uh, we should, we should soon decide which are the Children's cheeses in which are the grownups cheeses and that, that particular cheese comes in little cubes each carefully wrapped and it's

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the only food stuff that I know of where you have more left over after you finish eating before except possibly for a mcdonald's hamburger. Well, I think the vast scary people have solved every problem. They've solved the packaging problem. The labeling problem, the promotion problem, the

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keeping problem except one problem which they haven't solved and that is how to make cheese. There is that problem? There was a moment Rich in Richard Condon's new book which is about his little house in the little house, a Georgian mansion that he set up in

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Ireland in county kilkenny and he was bored once a man of in his fifties, uh taking an air France flight to paris and he was so bored, he had nothing to read that he ate a piece of cheese on on his tray, which he hadn't done

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before. And it was a piece of camembert at being air France. And he turned to the man sitting next to him, to whom he with whom he had not exchanged a word and he said, I have just eaten the first piece of cheese in my life.

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And the man sitting next to him said, well I hope it's not too late. Very nice. Very, very little little cheese story I threw in there. We, we gourmet specialists have a tendency to do that just in case you've wandered in here and wonder what's going

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on at this ungodly hour. This is Jonathan ward in a radio program called Crosstalk and we're talking to Roy Andres de group columnist um food expert, travel writer wine bibber wine bibber, you're on NBC from time to time occasionally yes that other network and one of

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the other networks, they also do radio over there just in case you've all forgotten. And uh let's say one article you did for esquire, you were out driving on the highway and stopped at one of those those plastic gas stations went in and they're in a

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plastic machine with plastic food. And you tried everything out of that machine, you must have used up 500 quarters trying twinkies and and ringo doodles and stuff. Castro snacks and pinkies and hostess pinkies and so on. It was because the car broke down and we had

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to wait for a new car and so we had nothing to do. And said my assistant who was with me had gone to the ladies room and outside the ladies room she had found this row of machines. So she said why don't we have a tasting

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of this food? One machine was very honest. It made a sort of and threw my quarter out at me onto the floor and refused to serve me. That was I felt an honest machine. And then I got sleepy of course we drank endless cokes and endless

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Pepsi's and finally I began to get drowsy in the car which wouldn't work and I saw I had this dream which I described of you know there was Senator Sam ervin uncovering all the traitors to the american way of life. And I thought to myself in

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my dream I saw all these other traitors, all these men who were making pinkies and signing keys and snow teas and and really debasing and defaming the taste buds of our Children that if this went on, no one would ever feel the fuzz of a peach

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on his lips again, No one would ever taste a really crisp macintosh apple. Uh, no one would drink some pure apple cider that, that I wondered whether these weren't really the most dangerous of all saboteurs for the american way of life. And then as a matter

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of fact, that evening, I went to a remarkable restaurant in in Washington which has been opened by a woman called the potomac, which in which it is an exact reproduction of a dining room of George Washington's time or tom jefferson's time at which the foods are

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served which are, which are of that time. Uh for instance, uh marinated rock was the fish. And this was rock fish marinated in wine vinegar as a, as a starter. And there was corn soup and there was cheese soup and there was, oh, wonderful roast turkey

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and Brunswick stew and corn pudding and so on. And Jonathan. After one had finished their, one realized how well they ate at that time, how, how little how little uh reduction in the quality of food that had been, I mean how much we've gone down the

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hill since then because it was really, it's really marvelous food. And so you know, I came out of that restaurant and finished my piece by saying, I looked around and thank God there wasn't a vending machine in sight. I don't want it to get out. But

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I once lived on a chicken farm in upstate new york when I was in 7th and 8th grade and we had 5000 white ones and 5000 black ones and I hated those chickens. But what we ate around the farm, we're Banti roosters that were allowed to

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run free and range all over the, the farmyard while these other chickens were in there, chicken wire cages, doing what chickens do. Food goes in. Well, never mind. But it was it was an awful time. We would no more eat one of those chickens than than.

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They just didn't taste like anything. I wonder it was your turkey good. It probably wasn't the turkey of George Washington and thomas, jefferson. No, but it's still, I don't think I I had had the feeling that it wasn't a battery fed turkey. I felt that it

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had, I always have the feeling when I taste to pull out the brest in France or a good chicken or turkey in the United States in a farm area that I can tell whether it's scrabbled around and eaten good roughage food because I think the flesh

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is firmer, more crispy crunchy chewy than the than the battery fred chicken, which has been brought up on Sylvester all or some of those other things that the FDA now thank God doesn't like, we've now eliminated the middle chemist, we've put them directly into the twinkies

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and I'm told now produces can in rats. So saccharin is the last thing left for weight watchers. What are they going to do now when they can't use sick laments and can't use saccharin, they're going to have to go back to sugar or maybe not eat

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any sugar. Good heavens! Yes, that's true. I think it's true that none of us really need sugar at all. I've, I've practically eliminated sugar from my diet apart from presumably the sugar, I get my orange juice in the morning and the sugar that's in the vegetables,

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but I never put sugar in coffee or tea or, and I never drink sweetened drinks if I can avoid it. Is that because you're on a diet or is it just, I'm just basically overweight. I live by eating. I live by eating and drinking now. It

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couldn't be worse, could it? I've got to in order to write articles and talk to to questioning people dangerously questioning people like you. I've got to know what I'm talking about and therefore I've got to taste the cheese, which brings us around to another article that

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you wrote as a matter of fact on how to lose weight by eating chinese food. Yes, that really works. It does I, as you know, I did a major piece right after President Nixon had been to Peking. My editors at esquire said to me Roy you're

00:22:44.570 - 00:22:58.540

gonna be on chinese food for a while because we want a major article now. And how you can get the same sort of banquet that that President Nixon had in with one lion peeking, you've got to tell us how we can get that here. So for

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about three months I wandered around the country on an unlimited expense account eating in chinese restaurants and I found some very good ones. That whole question of chinese food. Yes the best one of all was in ST louis, what's the name of that place? It's run

00:23:14.140 - 00:23:30.930

by a man called wong uh ling kang Wong. And the restaurant is called The Lantern House in ST louis. And I think the food is quite marvelous, quite marvelous. Of course one has to say at once though that you don't get the best food in that

00:23:30.940 - 00:23:45.260

restaurant or any chinese restaurant. If you just go in and sit down and say I want to see your menu, you've got to discuss it with them at least the day before. It's like any fine french or well really any restaurant you need if you're going

00:23:45.260 - 00:23:57.410

to get a truly great me and then you're going to taste the great specialties of the house. You really have to discuss it with them the day before so they can do some shopping and prepare special things for you. Now people people are always attacking me

00:23:57.410 - 00:24:09.520

and saying ah but they know who you are, so you get special service. I argue that anyone can do this, that it is ridiculous to go into a restaurant, sit down, look at the menu and say I'll have X, Y and z. I have two from

00:24:09.520 - 00:24:23.490

column one and three from column two, that's ridiculous. One has to, one has to discuss it with the owner or the chef if one is going to get a truly great meal. So you have to do that with the chinese as well. But for three months

00:24:23.490 - 00:24:41.760

I found that one can get really marvelous eating in chinese restaurants and not just the ordinary average Cantonese stuff now that we are being influenced by Sichuan. The various provinces of china are now coming in well, you know provinces like Hunan Hunan hope a and and

00:24:41.760 - 00:24:54.840

so on. Now some of the regional cooking of china is, is coming over here and it's quite marvelous. But I found after three months of that that I had lost £15 without particularly cutting down. And it is a fact of course that there's very little fat

00:24:54.850 - 00:25:09.400

in in chinese food and the oil they use is so enormously hot that none of it sticks to the food at all. And I lost weight. So I began working my editors again and I said, well Roy how about capitalizing on that and doing a reducing

00:25:09.400 - 00:25:26.400

diet. So I discovered that of course the walk was that the walk was the primary instrument for cooking and and all. My chinese gourmet friends always kept talking about harmony, which is whoa! The word harmony. I mean, you must be harmonious about the food. The ingredients

00:25:26.400 - 00:25:38.940

must be harmonious, the menu must be harmony. So I took the word Whoa and I put the two together and I called it my walk and whoa diet, which I thought was rather cute. And and we've had several 1000 letters from people who claim they've lost

00:25:38.940 - 00:25:54.230

weight on it. I lose weight on it. It works. I have to admit that the next to cBS building is a a chinese restaurant that you've reviewed the old key. Yn and I've been going there when mod Chazelle was there, I was gaining steadily. But now

00:25:54.230 - 00:26:06.210

that key yn is there? Stephen Wong is a very charming man, the man who owns that. I like him very much. And I think he does a good job there. I found a trick that sometimes works in restaurants like that. There's an evening drinking our where

00:26:06.210 - 00:26:20.750

everybody goes in and gets hammered at the bar. But after that, especially in the large cities. The bar seemed empty out. There's not a large dinner business, at least in new york. So if you hang around for a while, I sat in there one night and

00:26:20.760 - 00:26:35.890

tried Sichuan vegetable until I had a heartburn case. It was just impossible. But they had there were various kinds and they wanted to try each one of them out and wash them down with pickled mustard greens and and that was pretty awful. Well I think it's

00:26:35.890 - 00:26:47.670

the way to find out. I think you have to, I always say with wines to that you have to open two bottles or three bottles side by side if you really want to find out, if you really want to know which wine you like best. It's

00:26:47.670 - 00:27:05.190

ridiculous just to open one bottle and hope to remember because I've discovered that my taste buds have a very poor memory. My hearing has a very good memory. I once I hear something I can remember but tasting I cannot unless I make a note of the

00:27:05.190 - 00:27:17.120

quality rating of a wine and my impressions of it at the time I'm drinking it, I don't remember a week or a month later. So if you want to find out about wine, I recommend this to everybody. Buy two bottles of the same type of two

00:27:17.120 - 00:27:32.100

different labels. For instance, you know, one of the great grapes of California now is the Chanel blanc there at least five different labels or six different labels of the Chanel blanc grape that spelled C H E N I N B L A N C. It's a

00:27:32.100 - 00:27:48.940

delightfully refreshing, slightly tart white wine that originally the grapes grew along the loire River. Now by three different labels, three different California labels of taste them side by side. And you will rapidly come to a conclusion as to which one suits you best. Then make a

00:27:48.940 - 00:28:04.470

note of it and go on buying that particular label because certainly in California and more or less in spain and France and italy to. Now, if you like a wine, particularly a blended wine of a particular label, you'll find that that producer produces roughly the same

00:28:04.470 - 00:28:19.810

blend year after year, particularly if it's a blended wine where he has the opportunity for making it if it's too sweet, he adds a little of last year's slightly too sour and gets it level. This is a good way of everyday drinking. I think naturally if

00:28:19.810 - 00:28:32.930

you're a great vineyard, you rely you take the risk of the weather and you're up one year and you're down the other and heaven forbid that that should ever be changed. Trying for perfection each year is a marvelous thing is very expensive. You can lose a

00:28:32.930 - 00:28:46.160

lot of money trying for perfection each year. Well, fortunately about the only thing that could affect the California wines is a major earthquake, We don't want that. Of course they say that California may fall into the sea one day. I mean the shelf may break off,

00:28:46.190 - 00:29:01.140

it's better to drink now that's about our time Roy Andres de Groot, you can find them in the pages of esquire and three books coming out, Count them three books. Um and I'll be telling you about those when those are out and hopefully you'll come back

00:29:02.180 - 00:29:24.490

on those occasions. This is john Ward. The staff for this series of conversations consists of john shook Helen, Cerro's larry Solo, Jonathan Ward and mal West Crosstalk is produced in new york by CBS FM. It's a recorded radio program.