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Sonoma County, a diverse county of over one million acres is famed for its agriculture industry and recreation boasting a booming economy and a unique lifestyle for its citizens described by the theme Luther Burbank as the chosen spot of all the earth. Sonoma County is the place

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to live, work and play as we move into the 21st century. Led by the forward looking philosophy of its governing bodies. Sonoma County's 340,000 residents are a harmonious, successful blend of ethnic and economic backgrounds. We invite you to take a closer look at Sonoma County in

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the nineties with your host Rich McGlinchey. Hi everybody, welcome to a second special edition of Sonoma town in the nineties and I say special because the program we did just recently with the people that are with me today was very, very interesting. Many of you have

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told us it was. So we're going to continue our discussion on the santa rosa Creek master plan and we've seen many of this santa rosa Creek Master plan right behind us here. I think if the camera can pick that up, we talked with five persons to

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persons who have been working with the Committee for the restoration of santa rosa creek and three persons who have been working for the group that is, would you repeat the title once more for Citizens for the preservation of santa rosa Creek Citizens for the preservation of

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santa rosa creek. All right now, before we go any further, we're going to have our guests introduce themselves that we did once before and we'll start with you. Bill, Thank you. I'm Bill Carl. I'm the chair of the committee for restoring santa rosa creek. I'm Bill

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Night. I'm a santa rosa city councilman and also an architect and community. I'm kurt Schlichter. I'm an urban planner with Music and Associates. I'm linda Argo, a spokesperson for the Citizens for the preservation of the santa rosa Creek. My name is Roger Museum, an attorney by

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trade and I'm here to speak on behalf of the citizens for the preservation of Sand Creek. This group was with us about just recently and it was very very interesting program and they had a lot of great ideas, both pro and con. Somewhere in favor of

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the creek. Let me explain just a little bit about what we're talking about. The master plan. If you will for the santa rosa Creek would extend from Laguna on the west of santa rosa, a distance of approximately 12.8 miles to Los Alamos Road on the east.

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It would entails and visions a path in many areas that were biking, hiking, equestrian. Um, it is a rather major type of a project and a project of this size. Always it seems as opposition. Some people do not believe in it. Some people feel that it's

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headed in the wrong direction. So we're gonna hear from people on both sides of this fence and we're gonna find out a little bit more about it. If you may remember last time if you visited with us. Bill Carl indicated that although there was a figure

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Of $84 million $54 million dollars bill. Um why don't you talk a little bit more about that cost? I think people might have missed our first program. It was reputed to be 84 million. You say it's now a little less? Well, there've been revisions in the

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plan. Any plan that starts out obviously needs to get out to the public. People talk about it, revisions are made as you see there are certain deficiencies or changes that are necessary. And with some of the revisions that have been suggested by the Master Plan team

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and by our committee as well the price is about 54 million. And that assumes that if you bought the project today and put the entire project in. But we all have to realize that it's going to be a project spread out over 10, 15, 20 years.

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And the vast majority of the funds are, are the type of funds that are used for this kind of project that are available in federal states and local grant levels. For instance, the mitigation funds for Warm Springs Dam, which alone is $17 million bill one of

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the things you said between our visits here was that the project has basically always been a, a 12.8 mile project from Laguna to Los Alamos, Do you feel that the project still encompasses that same idea? Yeah, originally, and the reason I said that was that, that

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there are different portions, obviously A, B, C, D and E and F. You know, these, these designate different kinds of functions. And what happened was when the community got together to create the concept of, of restoring the creek. There are different things that were expected in

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different portions of the creek and the downtown was obviously the focus because that's the part that's the trapezoidal concrete channel and, and quite frankly, that's where the majority of the money that's going to have to go is gonna have to take care of that part. The

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rest of the parts are fairly, you know, certainly are minor in comparison with the restoration of that part, but there are so many different ideas and concepts that that came out and also that it isn't just a creek path, pedestrian path, there are certain things that

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it must do for the city. Uh, certainly a bike scheme, bike path system is essential. We want to connect Rincon Valley, Bennett Valley, you know, an Adele Springlake Howard park, all these schemes by pedestrian and bike system. So people can bike commute into the downtown and

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certainly from the west. Also, another thing that has to do with the cost. Uh the city of santa rosa has over $100,000 a year that we get that go to bike pass, so every year we have that money available and and in the parts of the,

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of the Creek master plan that are to solve our commute problems, in our bike commute problems and this type of thing, certainly the city has money at hand to implement some of those things, kurt you wanted to address the financial aspect of it, as I did

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on on the last program. These programs, federal, state, local programs that are available are small programs, they're 50 to $100,000. This mr Bill Knight was councilman night was saying $100,000 for bike paths, we're talking about a project that has is costing $54 million. Most of the

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programs are matching fund programs, so if you come up with $50,000 they'll give you $50,000 so you have to have the money first to get the money and then beyond that. Um This, well I lost my train of thought just one second. Um now um oh

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the $17 million that is available from mitigation um uh damn mitigation. I'm completely unaware of where that's from and I know it's not just Warm springs, warm springs dan. Um I was unaware of that $17 million and I'm not aware of it being allocated for Creek

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project. Um but as we know all of this money is collected through taxes. So the taxes are still going to be raised to implement this type of program, whether it's federal, state or local, it's going to come from tax $17 million dollars he's talking about comes

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from those. He has to be used and so it is probable that this money is available without, it's already been taken if you will out of our pockets. It's in funds that are set aside for that. There's a lot of competition though for these funds, which

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doesn't mean that even even if the city of santa rosa went after the funds which are our tax payer dollars that they would get them because in these times we understand that there's a great deal of competition for any available funding. The issue of eligibility, I

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think so far we've been, we've been given with respect to this project is a list of possible funds. We have no idea what the likelihood of eligibility would be for this project on any of these funds, even if they're available this $17 million dollar one. We've

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just learned about it. I think the critical issue here is, is that before such a plan is, is instigated, the citizens are entitled to have a complete breakdown of the financial aspects of this project. We don't know, they just want to start it on a piecemeal,

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uh, in a piecemeal manner without giving a, that's an idea of how the, the total cost is going to be born and who is going to pay for it might indicate that the, just on the issue of the 17 million, anybody who's read the IR would

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have would have seen that. It's certainly not anything that was new. It's if you read the environmental impact report and the master plan, you'd see that information, but I don't think there's any project that starts at any government level. That is a long term 20 year

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project that has all of its financing in place, right to start with. And we certainly can't compete for any of these funds unless unless we have a master plan in place. Getting a master plan in place will allow us to compete it. One thing in terms

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of competition, the National River and trails conservation assistance program, which is an arm of the National Park Service is using the santa rosa Creek model as a model across the United States would look to as one of the primary communities that is trying this kind of

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of an effort. You know, one of the things I did when I thought about getting us all together here a month or so ago was make a couple of phone calls and I talked to two other cities where their paths which are are referred to in

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glowing terms by the planning groups in those two cities has cost me about six phone calls, but I also found out that the law enforcement agencies and one of them was sentimental, um, adamantly wished the trail had never been created. They said that they have over

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20 years or something of that nature. They have had 84 rapes and they've had eight murders. Now that's a long time. And who knows whether that would've happened anywhere. But does that, does that give you a little bit, you know, because certainly we've looked into that

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too. And the issue is that, you know, if you look into parking garages or shopping center, you know, development or whatever, you'll find the same statistic. That's right. That's because there where there are people, there are issues like that. The overwhelming thing we found is that

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when you have a situation like, like what we have in certainly in the downtown part of a, of a creek that's been, uh, certainly a community turned their back on it years ago and we have our homeless issue and we have people living under those bridges

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that what happens is that when there is activity and that there are people that really reclaim those places and that there are uses and there are people spaces and the people can come down and enjoy that those types of things go and they disappear. And so

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those are the pluses and those are the, you know, the upsides of it. Uh, sure, you know, but I think that in all the investigation we through a period of about a year and a half. We look to other cities all over the country. And sure

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you're gonna find statistics both ways. But the general impression of people from those communities that oh they're great. You know boy we're so proud of our creek. We're so proud of our restoration our piece of the thing that we did. That's the overwhelming thing you know

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it's societal issues that you're talking about statistics. But when you talk about a quality of life and attribute to a community these types of things are looked pretty favorably on. These are more in terms of curves of things I found out recently. I want to throw

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them back at you two things. One of them is the I. R. Doesn't address the social impacts basically. At least I I read the I. R. As best I could through. It took forever but I did not find that it addressed social impact basically that failed.

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I think this what we're talking about here is something as I said that the calls I made the planning people or people who I did not get to talk to the citizenry. Talk to the planning people and they were very proud of the project. Talk to

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law enforcement people and they wish that it had never happened. Now this was the attitude or the impression that they gave me. You were talking about social impacts recently. Yes. Well first of all yes I have some first of all there's no lighting along this. 30

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miles of this trail, except for the downtown area. They're they're creating 12 miles of dark, isolated trails, which only invite invite crime, uh, policing. They did the police force, city of santa rosa did have a patrol in the parks um, for a time, but had to

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stop it because of budget reasons. Um, there they plan bicycle patrols for the outer reaches. Um, I don't know if they're going to be equipped with lights so they can ride around at night. Um, We don't know. Uh, Hey. Yeah. And also you have to remember

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that not only are trails on the tops of the banks, but there in the creek that wouldn't reaches A and B. It wouldn't provide any bicycle transportation in the winter. The, the channel creeks could not be used. Um, There's just a lot of conflicts here. Are

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you poised to say something? Uh, No, unless you want to talk about a new issue, the social impact. Up until yesterday, the design assuming that the changes will be made, that were presented at the creek. It's, it's a little bit different, but up until yesterday, um,

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the there were just dark, isolated areas designed along the creeks that were going to be paths running with many with many exits. So basically people could perpetrate crimes in the area and then get away and it was, it's, the sociological term is indefensible space is what

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they were creating, assuming that they're going to implement the changes. Um, the indefensible space issue is, is less than what it was. I think that's one thing we certainly wanna clear rich is that a lot of virtually all of the neighborhood areas and reach A. And

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B. The plan has been, has the path portion of the plan has been taken out. Uh There's been significant neighborhood opposition. The city's heard that opposition, the county's heard that opposition and that aspect of it is is gone. Uh and it's out not only on the

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plan, but also in the text of it, but interestingly, we do have a trail right now that exists along brush creek road behind a lot of neighborhoods and the incidences of crime, there are no different than anywhere else in the in the city of santa rosa,

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it's a completely different situation though. It's just a one isolated strip of a path along a creek. There's, this is what you were proposing earlier was a long strip with dark dark spaces, no lighting, no lighting that exists and has for eight years, two things you're

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going to be concerned with Bill City Councilman and your one third of the backing of this is, let's just assume that the calls I made and when the police, the department said, you know, they really were not too thrilled about these things, that's the case. You're

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talking about the cost for policing these lighting them first of all, and then policing them now, is that gonna be a major issue? Oh, certainly it's a major issue, but it's a technical issue. You talk to policemen and they're not too happy about having, you know,

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parking garages either. So it's, that's, it's not an issue of theirs to determine, it's an issue of how do you mitigate that, and do you know, get around the things that are a problem and, you know, we can, we can borrow from other communities have had

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these issues and have solved those things in a variety of different ways and we intend to do that. The thing that we're looking at is a master plan, it's not a technical issue document that solves all of these things. We know that we can solve these

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things. What it does is it lays it out in broad terms, what we want to accomplish. It doesn't, you know, get down to every little technicality thing, that's not the, that's not the point of a master plan, when we get to implement certain portions of the,

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of the plan, then those portions will be studied in detail to solve. You know, are we do, we need lighting and, you know, that kind of thing. Uh, you know, the portion of, of having a dark path down by the creek is certainly not, you know,

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to anybody's desire, there are gonna be continue no bike paths and paved paths at the tops of the banks that will be year round and that will be accessible and and lit and you know, that kind of thing and so you know, there are a variety

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of technical issues. I don't think we're here to argue back and forth of those. It's just in general terms, is it a good idea or bad idea? And you know, it's a community idea, that's where it came from. That's what we're trying to find out what

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you have to hold on a minute. That's what we're trying to find out. We'll give it a chance to make a comment on Bill's remarks. First we're gonna pause for this message and then we'll be back, we'll talk with Bill Carl, Bill night linda wardo and

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roger about the master plan for central is a great but first this message, this is the T. D. D. Operator. It took an act of Congress to order this pizza an act that guarantees people with disabilities access to everyday things, whether it's getting into a building,

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getting a job or just using the telephone, Olives, green peppers. Thanks to your support through easter seals, even ordering a pizza can be a pretty historic act, Pineapple, pineapple. Okay, fortunately many americans have found a way to respond to HIV friend that's got AIDS. What they're

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shooting up. I think that's the only way of educating their employees. The issue here is education is growing fast. Their communities, especially their friends and their families last year, I found out that I have HIV. If we're going to prevent the spread of HIV each and

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every one of us must do our part. Find out how you can help prevent HIV call 1 803 4 to AIDS. Welcome back to a very important edition of Sonoma town in the 90s and I hope you're finding it a very interesting edition because we're talking

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about the Santa Rosa Creek Master Plan. This has been in the news quite a lot of late and you're gonna be hearing about it for a month ahead. It's in a proposed plan going from Laguna to Los Alamos Road 12.8 miles. The areas that wants to

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traverse have been in conflict with many of the citizenry. We're hearing from people on one side right now. The citizens for the preservation of the creeks and Rose Creek and Bill Carl's Committee for restoring santa rosa Creek. Of course Bill night, our city council is sitting

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here with us Creek when we left. You wanted to comment on a remark, I think that either Bill or the Committee for the restoration of santa rosa Creek um has been presenting it as a community based thing. When the actuality is none of the citizens along

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the creek knew anything about this until very recently when they got public notice from the city of Santa rosa, None of the people actually living that owned the land along the creek knew anything about this and the committee for the restoration of santa rosa Creek is

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made up of citizens. Of a couple of developers are on the committee attorney, um councilman. It's it's not made up of citizens for the restoration of the santa rosa creek. So that's absolutely everybody right here. Yeah, look at the qualification environmental people. There are business people

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paid consultants also, there's the cross section of santa rosa's on that except for people that live rich. I'd like to address that because I think it's I think it's really important that when we discuss this issue that we only discuss it with truths and the fact

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is that the committee for restoring santa rosa Keep Creek is probably the best example of a broad based group that has existed in our county in many, many years. And it was purposely set up that way. There are people that represent the trout fishermen, there are

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landowners along the creek, there are people that are environmentalists and the Committee for restoring santa rosa creek has never paid any consultant for any of the work that's been, this is an extremely broad based and it was intentionally done that way because we've done a poor

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job of having broad based groups do work in our county paid consultants on the, on the same on the master planning team that are also on the santa rosa Creek. This is what I was informed. We have never paid any consultants. No, you haven't personally paid

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them, but they did work for the master planning team, paid consultants that are working on the master planning team are on your, what I'd like to bring. This is such a broad based project. Then what I'd like to know is where is your support? We've had

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several meetings now at the county at the city. There's been hundreds of people showing up every time, practically all of them are unanimously against the project and and we never we have never seen one property owner along the strip who actually wants this project who actually

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wants to give his property up or sell it. I would like to know where is all of this this project as a moderator. There have been other studies made another so called surveys made rapidly. Great many people think much of the idea is worthwhile. I've heard

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this from both sides. I've heard people out in our area. I live in the area of a reach area. Incidentally, I've heard many people out there, you know condemning the idea of putting it there. I've heard other people in the downtown area that uh going back

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to refer back to the liberals column that thought the restoration of the creek certainly in the santa rosa area and out for a ways, not the whole distance, but a ways was very much a good idea. Now. Uh there's one thing that I want to interject

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here and this. I'll throw this at you Bill or billy to one and this, this, I've heard this from others and it also puzzles me. We talk about and maybe you can discuss the individual reaches and you might clarify it that way. But when you talk

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about hiking and biking and equestrian, you're talking about three weird breeds that are like blood transfusions, they won't go into the other one. If I was walking along spring Lake park bicycles came flying up behind me. It's Canada blazes out of me. Uh, if people are

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walking on a path and an equestrian horse and rider come by people, although they basically, I think love horses will turn around and they'll jump two ft. I don't think you could possibly make any part of that pale hiking biking. And a question is that in

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the plan only partially and Bill should talk to this more than I, but, but let me, let me get part of it. There are two, there are two paths systems, one is basically being proposed as a paved commuter bike path type thing on the opposite side

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of the creek as a pedestrian path system. So there they are there, they really are separate there there in, in portions and it varies, you know, the conditions are different in different portions. So we have taken that effect when we had some of our meetings, we

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had the bikers, the bike commuters and the bike clubs in the city came down and told us what their conditions for, you know what they want and all that kind of So we've heard, you know from there and we're trying to do what is necessary for

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all those different kinds of groups. Two things I want you to do briefly. We are time flies here. The individual reaches our bill. I guess you're the best person to address this to what A. Is pretty much out of it as far as that part of

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it goes. So what about being through the neighborhoods? A through the neighborhoods in people's backyards has been taken out, B goes through from Farmers Lane to East Street. And that area we've taken it out of the neighborhood area, but in some of the commercial areas along

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Memorial Hospital, it exists C runs from East Street down to just below Railroad Square. And that's an area that needs not only restoration significant restoration, but also a creek paths. And of course that restoration is necessary to bring it back as a fishery, fish cannot survive

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in, in in warm water. And that's what we have when we don't have any kind of a canopy which occurred to indicate. We do. You have up in in reaches A. And M. B. D. Then runs uh from just below Railroad Square out to uh to

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Fulton Road. E. Runs out close to willow side, F and G. Then in the county area, uh And F. And G. Or in the in in county agricultural areas. The project out there has been downsized significantly from the original master plan that came out of the

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committee uh Out of the master plan committee to about 100 ft wide project through there. So that gives you a brief summary of the entire seven reaches. You you work where you told me you worked with people from F and G. That's the agricultural. Yes. And

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their their group opposing their property owners too, and they are opposing this plan. They also found out about it in january. Um and F and G right now it's been downsized, but they're still losing 40 acres of agricultural land. They're moving to levies 50 ft. Um

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They're putting passed around a wastewater pond, which is now under lock and key. Um It's um the property owners over there, they do not want the path either, and they have just learned learned about this. Um As far as taking the trails out, what is, what,

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this is a 20 to 30 year master plan and the plan eventually at the end end of the time, um would like to see paths go throughout the entire 12 point eight miles. Um And the wording is there for it. Um We were told by, by

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Councilman Night that if we did not want it, we wouldn't have it and we've been saying for the past eight months that we do not want it, so please take us out of the plan. Um And we're still we're still in the plants that are still

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in the Absolutely, but not in the in the residential neighborhood. They're not. It's tough to comment because we haven't seen the plan. We're trying to respond to people, we hear it. And so we have really been been very instructive back to the mastermind committee respond. And

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they have done that. Now, maybe you haven't seen it, but they have done that. You're not suggesting that reaches A and B of the project have been completely taken. Absolutely not. Are you, are you saying that they've been taken out of every piece of private property

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which which extends to the center line of the creative we said private residential property. Okay. You're making that that allegation right now in reaches a enrich a. It is out of all of the private residential property and reach Bay B. They counted about 10 residences down

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in the downtown section that you could call residences, but oftentimes those are used for offices and uh and and commercial as well. So it's not quite clear the exact number, but it is 99% of the of the residential property owners are, are excluded from the plan.

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Okay. And when you mean excluded, do you mean that any language or any provisions out of the E I R. Or the draft master plan have been taken out as well as as on the map as you know, when looking at those at the plan. And

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as you heard me and the planning commission yesterday, the committee is making a very strong recommendation that the language in the long term aspect of the plan gets pulled out. It's off the plan line. Uh and there's still some language in the draft plan that needs

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to be cleaned up so that it can never be put back in so that there isn't the goal that linda talks about to put a plan or put a trail ever in that area. Bill Carl, thank you. Thank you. I want to tell you we've been

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talking to Bill Carl and Bill is the chairman for the committee for the restoration of santa rosa Creek talking to Bill night city council person and also a architect Kerch liar who is an urban planner linda Bardo, who is the spokesperson for the citizen for the

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preservation of santa rosa creek and roger's attorney working with that group. My name is Rich McGlinchey, the program Sonoma County in the nineties. We hope that you understand a little bit more about the master plan for santa rosa Creek. See you next week. Until then. Good

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night, good luck and good health. Each and every one of you