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in Omagh County from the chosen spot of all the earth as far as nature is concerned, According to the famed plant wizard Luther Burbank Diverse County, with 1,010,000 acres of land and 1574 miles of scenic roadways, Cinema County is rightfully famed for its agriculture. Did a

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culture, industry and recreation, as well as for the amazingly successful ethnic and economic mixture of its more than 340,000 residents on for the forward looking philosophy of its local governing bodies. Now we invite you to take a closer look at Sonoma County in the eighties with

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your host Rich McGlinchy. You know, a few weeks ago on the program, we talked with Gene Tunney, this Nova County district attorney, and are never the effort to be fair and get both sides of things. We've asked the assistant public defender, Bruce Kinison, come over and

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talk about the public defender's office since the district attorney and the public defender generally find themselves in a conflict, if you will, or certainly competition in the courtroom like they're heading over here for a visit. Thanks, rich. I appreciate it. Yeah, great. Uh, two things I

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think we are asked before we get into the questions and answers in the program. Where's Bruce Kinison from? What do you do? Before you joined their public defender's office, I'm from the Bay Area, went through school and graduated from Stanford in Hastings Law School. I think

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most of the time before I was in the public defender's office, I spend in the mountains at least the free time working in Yosemite National Park. So you graduated. Tampered Hastings. Okay, now you're the assistant public defender assistant to marking Miller of there. And a lot

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of people really do not know have not had it defined for them. So maybe we could ask you this. What is the public defender? I'm glad you asked that, because our clients are always under the impression that when they're represented by a public defender, they're not

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represented by a real lawyer, and frequently they frequently threaten us. If things aren't going right with their case of that, they're going to go out and hire a real lawyer. Well, public defenders, air riel lawyers, just like private lawyers are We just happen to be hired

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by Sonoma County to specialize in defending criminal cases. What the public defender office as such, Bruce and I don't mean to go back into the complete history of it, but I presume that distance established originally as sort of a counter part of the district attorney, this

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journey is elected. Crystal, who was job, I guess, is to prosecute whatever case they're given to him. Now everybody has a right to a defense, and this is where the public defender's office, I guess, comes in. I think what really kicked it off is the famous

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book and TV movie called Gideon's Trumpet, where Henry Fonda played a man named Gideon who was charged with a cheap felony charge. And I wanted to have a lawyer, but he couldn't afford to hire one. And the Supreme Court, back in 1962 said that he had

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a right to have ah lawyer appointed to represent him if he I couldn't afford to hire his own. And from that public defender's offices got started around the country. Thank heaven to do, because everyone, regardless of what his physical circumstances, maybe if charged with the crime,

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has a right to defense in our system, so that right there indicates what we need the public defender's office right now in Sonoma County. How big is the public defender's office? How many people are involved? And what about is your budget? We have 30.5 people that

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half one is just works part time. It's not a short person. And of that, we have 19 lawyers working in the office, and we have a budget in the last year of $1.7 million. All right now, Let by comparison, the district attorney indicated that they had

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30 attorneys had a budget of over $5 million so they must do about We're prosecuting the unity funding. Is that right? Somehow I think that they can make a more appealing pitch to the Board of Supervisors. When they're saying that they want to put these people

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away, Then we can by saying that we want to defend people. But in fact they have certain other things that they're involved in, particularly family support that were not involved in the true. That makes the office have to be bigger. And besides that, they prosecute all

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the case in cases, and we defend about 70 or 80% of the criminal cases in Sonoma County. But that's not all of them, right? Jean did mention specifically that some third or more of his attorneys were involved in the family support Unit to think cases that

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so that that doesn't make sense. I forget. I think his case number was something that effective 20,000 misdemeanors. I believe in 2000 felonies. How many cases that the public defender's office handle it? Last year we had 20,000 new cases coming 2000. It was certainly an increase.

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It's about a 25% increase over the last two years from what we had before. Okay is, well, let's take the case to 20,000 last year. Is that rising steeply, or is that staying the same and just gradually progressing? How do you feel that scoring? As I

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said it, The caseload is about 25% more than than two years before I think in in years, 10 years ago or so, the caseload would rise in the amount of cases that we had, but in recent years it's it's risen a lot more steeply. Well, like

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you say, 25% a couple of years, I mean, that means 100% in eight years. It would rise at that at that figure. You know, if it continues to go that way, population courses county for a lot of yours. I think populations part of it. But part

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of its the increased urbanization of the county of Santa Rosa itself gets bigger. Seems that around the country, urban areas are more susceptible to crime. And and I think that the fact that drugs were still a significant problem in the county has a lot to do

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with the caseload. All right. No one asked this question and ready. You feel a rise in cases? It says about another county. How would you describe that you partially did there? But how would you add to that? We certainly it indicates that Sonoma counties getting bigger.

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I think that if the population leveled out in Sonoma County, so with the crime rate, the fact is that they're more dangerous drugs on the market than there used to be. And the efforts that have been made to to stem drug use and the crimes that

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go along with drug use have only been partially successful. And I think that the failure of that to be more successful, has a lot to do with the rising caseload that we have. Drugs are really probably our major problem in our society right now. What you

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feel one of them was certainly one of the major problems since crack has come along, you know this this is unbelievable. I mean, I remember looking at papers of three or four years ago where we heard nothing really of this somebody, one of the stars was

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freebasing some cocaine or something. And the word crack was mentioned this three or four years ago. Now, every day you picked this up. You talk about the huge number of people, certainly in the Bay area. Haven't heard as much about it up here. But I'm sure

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we suffering that people in the Bay Area involved in cracked it's a production, that sale on the street, that, uh, is just going to eat us alive eventually. It's really a good question. I think that it's going to be a tremendous problem in the future. And

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unless something's more done to, um, prevent drug abuse than has been done so far for in various ways that it's going to threatened to eat us in the future. You know, as we grow in population, you mention that part of it does. Do you find that

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drug abuse progress is about the same population or not? Is that just a difficult question? But, I mean, what have you found? I don't think that I could really answer the question. I think that drug abuse is a is a problem that has just risen in

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time with better ah, distribution. I supposed to places like this more people knowing other people who have used drugs crack cocaine is something that, as you said, has just recently been introduced into Sonoma County. It's a very dangerous drug. It's It's hard to tell how it

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would exactly relate to population because of all the other factors that are involved. But certainly that would be one factor you mentioned earlier that you had 20,000 cases last year have 19 attorneys. They must really run their towns off that many cases don't Yeah, I think

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it takes a lot of commitment for the lawyers in the public defender's office for the whole staff just to keep our heads above the water. If you divide that kind of in there you're getting. You're talking about each lawyer having a little more than 1000 cases

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divide exactly that way. But you say nice keen attorneys in 20,000 cases, eats attorneys, is sort of responsible for more than 1000 cases a year. That would be unbelievable. Well, I think we have about the highest case load in the state. Her lawyer. That's awful. Okay,

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you know, a lot of people say Use the phrase that we're interview Neera off victims rights as opposed to defendant right now. Do you do agree that there's been a change in the way criminals and and victims have been treated? I think it goes without saying

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that the fact that we no longer have the Warren Court in Washington, D. C. The fact that we no longer have the Rose Byrd Court has had some kind of an impact on the way that the court decisions have come down the court decisions, Um, and

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for that matter, some laws that have been passed by the legislatures have had effect on the kind of questions that we can ask people in court whether they be victims or other witnesses the kind of questions that the police are able to ask our clients and

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the various procedures they have to go through so that the change in the courts have really had a significant difference. Uh, you know, do attorney, when he visited with 12 made a point that that the he felt that the removal of Rose Bird and the other

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two justices by the electorate a couple of years ago waas do the fact that they refused to uphold the death penalty in many cases. Would you want to comment? I think that clearly that was one of the issues in the election. It wasn't the only issue.

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I think that there were insurance companies, for example, that were displeased with role of the California Supreme Court in personal injury cases in civil cases that had nothing to do with the death penalty. But certainly the death penalty was an issue that was in the headlines,

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and I think people were, uh, concerned about it when they voted. You know, this is something we could we could talk about for a long time, and and I was listening interested in what Jean had to say it. I'm interested in what you would more tender

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and your staff would say. It seems like for a long time after the Miranda decision and certain other things that the defendant's rights were were zealously guarded, so to speak, or at least not quite sure how it should phrases. But it seems like they were cognizant

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of those at all times and that victims sometimes for lost in the shuffle. Now it seems like the Conservatives tied the law and order. Side is concerted, itself stronger, It seems like in the electorate, and now it's It's the victim's right. And I wonder if before

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the victim's right for really being neglected and now the defendant's rights are being Are we just dependent? Swing that far each way? When it does, I don't know how far the pendulum is going to swing. It certainly seems to be swinging rightward now, and I don't

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know that we've seen the end of it. Assuming that the pendulum had swung to the left with the Warren Court in the bird court, Um, I clearly we're far to the right of of where we were then, maybe we're going to go further. Maybe we aren't

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but the impact of the way the individual judges look at cases is really substantial, and even though they may be relying on the same old precedence and the same statutes that have been passed in the in the past, they seem to be looking at them in

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human in different ways. And the way that they look at them from their their own experiences really has a substantial difference in the way justice gets meted out in the criminal courts. I wonder if this is there something just coming to me Mind rather come off

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the top of the head especially, And I don't know if it says the validity or not. But in our own county, many of our judges are our spirit. Court judges have formerly been members of the district attorney's office. Many judges all over the state have previously

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been in District Attorney's office is a logical progression from the district attorney's office to a judgeship. Does that is that logical? In the eyes of the governors and that sort of thing or not, it's hard to read any kind of governors mind, but certainly district attorney's

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air associated with law enforcement and people involved in law enforcement, the attorney general's office through the rest of the state. A lot of district attorneys that I've known through the years have had political aspirations or judicial aspirations that go beyond really being a deputy district attorney.

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Yeah, that's a good point. And it's a good I think I was a good question, basically. But I think that it's surprising the number of persons who progress from prosecution, if you will, into judgeships. And I don't know, just as a open minded citizen, which I'd

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like to thank you. I wonder if if that's a balance, but we'll talk more in just a minute. Ladies and gentlemen, we gonna pause right here for a moment that the station bring Already. It's a public service announcement, after which assistant public defender Bruce Kinison and

00:16:28.200 - 00:16:45.440

I will return. We're talking more about the public defender's office and its role in our society. Sonoma County apples air sweetened Good cause the grown right here in your neighborhood, with sandy soil and cool night breezes wafting through the apple trees. Home is the place for

00:16:45.440 - 00:16:59.890

apple to grow big and drive and yummy. So remember when you buy an apple, look for local ones, and that'll guarantee you've got the freshest, tastiest, most neutral firing. Live using Apple's on the Face of the Earth, and you'll help keep our farm strong to protect

00:16:59.890 - 00:17:16.030

the heart Song Sonoma County. Ask your broker for local farm products. Hello, I'm Bob Hope. You know there are nearly 300,000 disabled veterans living in California today. Many of them are unemployed or have jobs. Just don't measure up. Finding a good job can be a maze

00:17:16.030 - 00:17:31.720

of confusion and full of dead ends. California's Employment Development Department may be able to help you find their job and a way out of the maze. If you're a disabled or Vietnam vet, call your local state Employment development department office. You owe it to yourself. E

00:17:31.720 - 00:17:48.040

D. D. Serving the people of California. Welcome back to this edition of Sonoma County in the eighties. That's when he told you started the program. A few weeks back, we talked to Cinema County District Attorney Gene Tunney, and we heard the prosecutor side of the legal

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system. So we decided in order to be fair, we should talk to someone in the public defender's office and we have the assistant public defender Bruce Kennison with us in this program. And Bruce, uh, one of things I think we should throw it right about here

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is have the changes in the federal and in the California Supreme Court's affected the way criminal law is practiced in California Rich, they really have made terrific changes. Um, legal motions that were available in the past aren't available now. Um, the kinds of questions that we

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can ask witnesses in court that used to be available are no longer now. The kind of evidence that's permitted in court is a lot more available to the process the prosecution now than it used to be. There used to be federal constitutional protections that have been

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relax, shall we say, very relaxed. Well, sort of a companion question that might be to have the changes in the way the criminal cases are decided has that affected the way the police do their job? I think that there to really significant ways where the police

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are different on the streets than they used to be. There was a federal Supreme Court case that talked about the good faith, um, of police as being a reason toe uphold search warrants. It used to be the 10 15 years ago that it was the exception

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rather than the rule, when police would bother to go to a judge with us on application for a search warrant and have the judge reviewed the application and signed it and then conduct the search. Police used to be a lot more likely to do a search

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without a warrant. It used to be that the courts would say that if it was close that they would give a preference to a warrant. But it really didn't make that much difference whether they make a search pursuant to a warrant or not. In recent years,

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though, there's a decided preference for searches with warrants and warrants that would have been thrown out in years past aren't thrown out, and evidence the press that would have been suppressed in years past isn't suppressed anymore. So the police have really made a Neff ERT and

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I think that it's a terrific thing to go to judges with applications for search warrant and get judicial approval for search is much more now than in the past. There's a second area that I don't regard is being so favorable. It used to be that when

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at least in California, that when police violated somebody's Miranda rights decided that where the person decided that he wanted to exercise is right to remain silent or talk to a lawyer before questioning that the police would stop question questioning them and if they didn't stop questioning

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them and then the statements made by the suspect wouldn't be able to be used in court. Um, very. Recently, the California Supreme Court has decided that they can be used, at least for impeachment. Even if the suspect says that he doesn't want to talk to them,

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then he wants to talk to a lawyer. For example, Um, I found in it. I I think that it's a common experience that in the past that when someone would invoke his Miranda rights and say he didn't want to talk to the police without talking to

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a lawyer first, that police would, in fact stop questioning. No tapes that I've heard seemed to suggest that the police say, Well, that's fine. We know you want to talk to a lawyer. We know you don't want to talk about it now, but let's talk about

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it anyway, and clearly it's a violation of the person's constitutional rights. But because the courts have said that it could come in to impeach the suspects, testimony at trial, that the police go ahead and do it anyway, and I think that that's unfortunate change in the

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law. Good point. Oh, one thing comes to mind. Both you public defender's office and the district attorney's office are both so Democratic government agencies now do you work more closely with the D A's than, let's say, a private criminal or criminal lawyers might do? A lot

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of our clients, I suppose, might, uh, I think that we even sleep together, but it's not. It's not even close to that. And it's It's interesting that even though we come to work at more or less the same time, we go home more or less the

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same time. I think we stay later than they do that, Uh, we keep more or less the same hours and work in the same building because we're both sides are very much aware their ethical responsibilities to the respective clients to the government on the one hand,

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and the accused criminals, on the other hand, we don't we aren't close to them. We don't party together. We don't normally lunch together, and we stay at arm's length in always. All right, the adversarial present position been, perhaps, since that's as it should be. Uh would

00:23:16.740 - 00:23:33.920

then the way you just explain that you would be saying that the client does not have any reason to feel that you would represent the rest effectively, that a private lawyer, I think that the expression dump truck has been in existence through counties in the state,

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sometimes referring to certain public defenders who defendants feel dumped their cases. Already, I think that we have a lot of cases and we try real hard on the cases. Sometimes it seems like we have so many cases that we don't know what to do with him.

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But when we when we're handling them, we're doing the best we can. And they certainly don't have any kind of relationship with the judges or the D A's that makes us want to get rid of cases anymore easily than any other lawyer like. And I can

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assure the the audience I've I've watched our own district attorney or public defenders over many years practicing law, trying cases, defending them, and they go in there and get their very best, regardless of which side they're on. They do the best job they kind of prosecuting.

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And I know that people have noted years. Public Defender's office gives that defendant very best defense possible, So I can assure you that, as Bruce says, that's almost laughable. These people really are professionals in the act like it at all times. What is plea bargaining? Quickly?

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Briefly, And is it practiced here? Plea bargain is kind of a buzzword around the state around the country. For a practice where the judges and the prosecutors and the defense attorneys discuss it, A disposition of a case sometimes charges air reduced. Sometimes charges are dismissed, sometimes

00:25:09.190 - 00:25:28.410

sentences, air discussed before they're imposed and a result reached without a trial. That way, certainly it's practiced in Sonoma County. Is it's practiced in every county in the state, even those that say they don't believe Oregon. Well, let me ask you this plea bargains well, to

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please do public defenders plea bargain as much Mr Private attorneys. It's funny because sometimes private attorneys might hold themselves out as people who are above the system, but it comes down to whether the case is going to go to trial or whether the case is going

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to be settled. In my experience, all defense attorneys, whether they're public defenders or private lawyers, look at him the same way. So I think that we probably plea bargain Justus Muchas private attorneys, but no more. This has been a system set up over in the past

00:26:04.570 - 00:26:21.920

years. I've been told by Martine and by Gene Tunney when they visited with me in past to save a lot of times. A lot of money in many cases, try to convict somebody on a series of major charges, maybe darn near impossible according to the prosecuting

00:26:21.920 - 00:26:37.530

side of the picture. Whereas the person has maybe done something wrong, definitely, and is willing to plead to a lesser charge. It seems like the whole if that does work, the whole system benefits because it goes through the system quicker and that delaying trials and long

00:26:37.540 - 00:26:53.570

periods of time cost a lot of money, right? Without a doubt, if every case went to trial that has been filed, the county would go broke right away. So the fact that some of charges would be reduced, or that there would be a sentence that would

00:26:53.570 - 00:27:12.920

be agreed upon is something that really does. The county of service certainly is from my point of view, it when charges are being dismissed or a sentence is being agreed upon, it rarely varies from what would it ultimately happen in a trial that the person's told

00:27:12.920 - 00:27:26.400

up front that what sentence is going to be receiving without going through a trial? But the ultimate sentence that he gets is probably going to be very close to what he would receive if he did go through a trial. We got a couple of others. Let

00:27:26.660 - 00:27:44.490

in your opinion, is public defender role of the public defender, satisfying career. I've been doing this for over 16 years. I thought that I would be. I want to learn how to try jury trials and a friend of mine from law schools said that public defending

00:27:44.490 - 00:28:03.090

was a terrific way to learn how to try jury trials, and I learned how to do that some years ago of, But I think that the but the job has been satisfying. The career could be satisfied simply because we really have an opportunity to be Reuters

00:28:03.090 - 00:28:22.420

who aren't bound by paychecks. We don't have to get fees from our clients. We don't have to refused to go to trial or refuse to do an appeal because our client has doesn't have enough money to represent to pay us a higher fee. And so we

00:28:22.420 - 00:28:41.900

really get to evaluate the cases we get to represent our clients based in a really pure sense on what we can do or how we look at the case. Beyond that, there's just seems to be a fundamental unfairness of having trained expert lawyers prosecute cases. And

00:28:41.900 - 00:29:01.480

certainly the D. A's office in Sonoma County is filled with expert prosecuting lawyers and to have people who could never afford to hire their own lawyers who are educated enough to to represent themselves, be put in the position of having defense to defend themselves. And so

00:29:01.480 - 00:29:17.370

filling that role of balancing out the system really has become quite satisfying in my life. And I think everybody else in my office, thank you, my friend, protecting the time to come and visit with us and telling us what the public defender's office does on the

00:29:17.370 - 00:29:33.410

importance of it made genuine. We've been talking to assistant public defender Bruce Kennison, and we talked to Bruce about the public defender's office in the public defender's role and how it's served county it are state or federal. Justice is right. It was rich because you'll be

00:29:33.410 - 00:30:07.950

back with you next week. And remember the county government family related agency until end. Good night. Good luck. A good health, no.