00:01:24.240 - 00:01:45.850

Yeah, very nice. Well thank you morgan Cotner and welcome to Cinema Sounds. You are our inaugural uhh almost said host. I'm the host. Like a role guest. So what can you tell us about that doing that? You just played? Well it's called Turkey in the straw

00:01:46.650 - 00:02:06.430

and I just, I thought I'd play because it is sort of my go to tune when I am playing out um usually playing like on the streets somewhere you know because ever since I started playing the fiddle uh since I had already played other instruments that

00:02:06.430 - 00:02:24.220

already played guitar, other strings, I picked up the fiddle fairly quickly but I needed a lot of practice you know and so I went out on the street um downtown santa rosa and petaluma and just around and I started playing on the street and over the

00:02:24.220 - 00:02:44.580

years it's just been something I've done to you know keep my chops up and you know make a little spare change publicity. You know sometimes I got interested in music lessons and stuff like that. So playing on the street has always been something that I've just

00:02:44.590 - 00:02:58.170

gone back to and whenever I play on the street, I just seem to always play turkey in the straw. It's just, it's sort of like, you know, the ice cream truck song because it's that and you hear that they're in the neighborhood, did it dude, It's

00:02:58.170 - 00:03:15.920

just such a familiar little happy tune. I remember as a kid, because I didn't learn fiddle music as a kid, I remember hearing um, do your ears hang low, Do they wobble to him for that kind of stuff? And, and then it's just a great tune

00:03:15.920 - 00:03:36.100

to play on the fiddle, you can do a lot of fun stuff with it. And so I've, I've learned a lot of different tunes over the years and I just stand there playing on the street and the one that just I just I have to play

00:03:36.100 - 00:03:55.180

turkey in the straw. So you mentioned you play guitar, you play fiddle. What what was your first instrument? My first instrument was the trumpet. Did that in the 4th grade or 5th and 6th grade my school had an orchestra and I have a really inspiring music

00:03:55.180 - 00:04:13.640

teacher there in a mr Stratton meyer, you wore a tuxedo at our elementary school concerts. My parents, I I just thought that was normal because I was like well that's what my teacher is doing and my parents were like he's wearing a tuxedo, that's you know,

00:04:13.650 - 00:04:37.340

he's serious about it. So um anyhow I just didn't really like the trumpet after the marching band in junior high I just I started to listen to a lot more rock and roll like guitar stuff. I wanted to learn guitar. So really I started guitar and

00:04:37.350 - 00:04:55.950

um when I started high school and that was the instrument, you know that I stuck with and where you know um yeah what I learned on the trumpet, I picked up a few things about reading music and you know, it helped me grow as um but

00:04:55.950 - 00:05:14.930

I wasn't learning you know like music theory on it and stuff, I wasn't actually playing, no one was showing me how to improvise or turning me onto horn players, like the jazz, you know stuff, so it just um grew a little dull for me and and

00:05:14.930 - 00:05:30.460

so uh I did guitar throughout high school but I was just kind of doing it on my own. I was I was taking lessons and jamming with my friends that were in bands, just kind of a bit shy. I never really in that period of time,

00:05:31.040 - 00:05:46.660

I just didn't really find my place now. It's new. Like I tried to start a band, never really followed through with it. I kind of didn't really want to be up on stage looking done in front of my friends, that's what came down to it was

00:05:46.660 - 00:06:06.560

like hardcore like you know image stuff, you know all those uh I grew up in Bakersfield and we were just worshipping all those bands that came out of L. A. You know the red hot chili peppers and jane's addiction, all those um you know it just

00:06:06.560 - 00:06:24.440

was like to be in a band, you had to be super cool and I just, I don't know, I didn't I loved music but I didn't really find my place and I love that that music too. But I went to college to study music more and

00:06:24.440 - 00:06:46.870

then I went to Cinema State, you know and Snow um a state university really broaden my my horizons and I learned a lot more about jazz. I learned a lot more about music in general. I met a lot of different people who um you know like

00:06:46.880 - 00:07:03.700

in northern California and Moran and cinema, there's kind of a deadhead scene. There were some heads in Bakersfield too. But it was you know, up here, it was it's like um I met more musicians who actually really like, we're into the music and plated and just

00:07:03.710 - 00:07:28.720

um there's the wine country like jazz scene, there's um and we have a great faculty at Sonoma State um in the nineties I think some of them are still there randy Vincent, my guitar teacher and mel Graves who passed on but also George marsh and will

00:07:28.720 - 00:07:49.580

johnson. And so I went from wanting to play rock and roll in high school and I also was interested in classical guitar, I was interested in folk guitar in high school too. I wanted to play Flamenco for a little while. I went through all these different

00:07:49.580 - 00:08:20.940

little periods. But um then I went to Cinema State and started to get into more traditional music, older music. I started to, they're more curious about all this stuff. Um and then I went home to Bakersfield on a summer vacation and someone told me about a

00:08:20.940 - 00:08:46.570

bluegrass jam at a music store, that music store called buskers music in Bakersfield. They had a bluegrass jam every saturday. And so I had heard about bluegrass through my survey of us music class in college really, because there wasn't really any of it in Bakersfield growing

00:08:46.570 - 00:09:06.280

up, there was country music, you know that the modern, you know what the early nineties, it was achey breaky heart and stuff like that. I had no interest in that really. So I was just not even aware of it. It was something that I just hadn't

00:09:06.280 - 00:09:24.250

really thought much about. Um and then when I heard bluegrass, I just was like, wow, that's kind of like jazz because they're all taking solos, it has this kind of communal, you know, and I like the rhythm of it. I liked how that there was no

00:09:24.250 - 00:09:42.270

drums, but you have like the base and the banjo and you have the man who had all these instruments working, working together, because I've been just starting to really study that kind of stuff, you know, in, in if you're jazz, if you're if you're going the

00:09:42.270 - 00:10:01.410

jazz route and um usually it's in college, you know where you go choose which dream you go. Um you know, you study a lot, you study things like the feel and the rhythm section in the groove and the beat and stuff like that and all those

00:10:01.410 - 00:10:28.280

things that really matter if you're gonna be out playing. It just seemed to me, jazz was the way to go. And um and so if I wanted to play bluegrass, you know, I could pick because I could hear the cords because I was studying jazz all

00:10:28.280 - 00:10:51.750

of sudden I could hear more cords and scale relationships and I could understand what they were doing as far as passing solos around and stuff. So it just blew my mind because I um I just had heard all this modern country music where the fiddle is

00:10:51.750 - 00:11:12.290

really kind of, you know, uh in the mix but not very featured, the drums are, you know, it's very rock and roll influenced and I just really like that, that sound that that so I started going to those bluegrass jams on Saturdays and I got a

00:11:12.290 - 00:11:33.160

Banja, that was the first thing I got a banjo and a book, my friend, so clo on melodic bluegrass banjo and someone was saying, why are you starting with that? You should learn some banjo rolls or you know, start with the Scruggs stuff or, but it

00:11:33.160 - 00:11:49.530

was the recommendation of the store owner, you should get this book, had a cassette and it had, you know, Turkey in the straw, had Devil's Dream and sailor's horn pipe, and it just had a whole bunch of the standard tunes which I needed because I didn't

00:11:49.530 - 00:12:08.840

really know him and I had it all tapped out on the banjo. So that was the first thing I did that was really like different then. Um it was on, it felt like it was kind of on my own, you know, none of my friends were

00:12:08.840 - 00:12:25.100

into it. These were like to me these were really old people. I remember I took my mom down to the store after she's been hearing about these old, she's like these people aren't that old, you've been talking about how these old people, I'm like yeah, but

00:12:25.100 - 00:12:47.710

mom, I'm like come on, I'm 18, I'm jammed with this guy who's like 50, 60, they're old. But there were a few of them who who were, you know, um maybe some octogenarians, like there were a couple of the truly older, but it's generally, you know,

00:12:47.720 - 00:13:10.220

just grown ups, you know what I considered a grown up jam now and um but they were definitely playing the older stuff and it was this whole thing about like these are older people and I since everything, you know in high school was all about what

00:13:10.220 - 00:13:30.130

was new and you know, I was, we were trying, you know, we still like Music from the 60s and like classic stuff, you know, there was some appreciation, but the most emphasis was on new and it shifted for me too. I wanted to check out what

00:13:30.130 - 00:13:49.780

was what had gone on because I realized that country music came from somewhere and it had changed once I realized that it was similar to jazz and and that it attracted me that same way the jazz did and that, that's what it used to be like

00:13:49.790 - 00:14:12.790

before, you know, once I, and I just realized, wow, you know, that's so cool because I actually feel like I really like that. I kind of wish I was in like back in the days, sitting on a, you know, ports with like with my community, like,

00:14:12.790 - 00:14:29.420

hey, you know, maybe there's a mandolin player next door and a fiddler down the street and you know what I mean? We're going to just get together and play. You mean? It's, you mean like, like that because it's, you know, everything is so about, you know,

00:14:29.610 - 00:14:52.420

if you get into like the teenage band, whole thing, you know, it can be kind of mean to be honest, everyone's trying to be cool. I've been trying to outdo each other and even though bluegrass, it has um, it has a competitiveness as well. Um an

00:14:52.420 - 00:15:09.650

old time music is a little less competitive, but still, um, it's just way more toned down and more, you can tell this is, this is music for everyone, for the old people, this is for the little kids, it's for everyone in between. And I always like

00:15:09.650 - 00:15:29.570

that kind of stuff too. There are a few things and in baker's, so we had a scar band that was like that, remember scott music being kind of like the thing that brought everyone together, you know? And that was big in the 90s to yeah, but

00:15:29.570 - 00:15:48.820

I just thought, you know, this music is super cool, it's the folk tradition, like, in the real sense, not on the stage since, but like in the real sense, because I discovered that these jams and they're really fun, um built up the nerve to start just

00:15:48.820 - 00:16:09.740

going in there and trying to play a few melodies and they encouraged me. It was really great, you know? And um and I tell my friends about, and then I occasionally, you know, find someone who had some a little bit of knew something about bluegrass for

00:16:09.740 - 00:16:27.050

old time, anyhow, it went from being this thing I was doing on my own to you know and I would just do it for a little bit. I did like in the summer I try to learn some banjo and I go back to school and get

00:16:27.050 - 00:16:43.810

back to jazz guitar you know And I the next summer I got a mandolin I was taking uh an improv classic J. C. And I got an electric mandolin at the music store across the street from the J. C. And I brought it to my my

00:16:43.810 - 00:17:01.110

improv class. I did some jazz improv on the mandolin which was really cool help me And that helped me actually because I eventually did not stick with the banjo I could still play it a little bit but I did not stick with it. I switched to

00:17:01.110 - 00:17:24.620

the mandolin and then the fiddle really. Um And it was probably you know getting getting used to the tuning of the mandolin, there's two things that helped me build up the nerve to actually become a fiddler, which is, I got used to the tuning of the

00:17:24.620 - 00:17:50.980

mandolin and that the the scale and the way that the notes are the same, you know? Um and I met Kenny hall, that was the other thing because fiddle music to me it always sounded so just fancy and it still does, you know, has a lot

00:17:50.980 - 00:18:14.890

of expression in it. Mhm And um when I heard Kenny Hall play the fiddle, there was just this other expression that's all I can say. I I don't know exactly how to describe it, but when I heard him play the fiddle because I didn't know he

00:18:14.890 - 00:18:35.240

even played the fiddle, I kept hearing about how he played the mandolin, he's a handle in, you know, yeah, well renowned as a mandolinist and uh, but it was hearing them play the fiddle that made me just go, wait, I can do this, I can, there's

00:18:35.240 - 00:18:57.890

something about it and it's, it's bold and it's forward sounding, but it's, it's clear and it's not, it's not kind of uh that mysticism of, you know, here like the way that they go up the neck and use the kind of, and I know how to

00:18:57.900 - 00:19:12.470

manipulate the strings, like to get that kind of bluesy stuff from playing the guitar. I know how to slide so theoretically, I know how it's done, but I was not a violinist growing up, I was gonna classically trained violinist since I was a little kid or

00:19:12.470 - 00:19:41.520

anything like that. So, so Kenny halls fiddle style had kind of limited technique, it wasn't really, um, all over the place. Um There are certain things that he did and he did very consistently. Like I like to demonstrate this like just that real simple, it's not

00:19:41.520 - 00:20:11.670

that simple really, but um that fourth finger going up into the a note along with the a lighting to unison. And there's just a way, you know, every fiddler does that, it'll that's just a typical thing. Classical people don't though. It is something that, you know,

00:20:11.680 - 00:20:28.220

it really splits you off into that world of what is a fiddle and what is a violin, because violins and you're playing an orchestra, any classical music, unless it's written into the music that you're going to be doing that double sound, you wouldn't just do it

00:20:28.230 - 00:20:50.020

and it was the way that, you know like we're just gonna do that. I remember like Angeline the baker, the these little slides to, it was the little slides, they weren't, there weren't a whole lot of them, but they were in just the right places, you

00:20:50.020 - 00:21:23.270

know the way it would come down into that wow weights. Um It's a fairly uh you know, it's not the most advanced fiddle thing, but it's not it's not the most it's not the first thing you learn either because to really get that and then to

00:21:23.270 - 00:21:43.380

play to have that finger really nailing that unison and then to have the dexterity of the other fingers working with it, you know, it's it's something that took me a lab, you know, so I could realize that he was playing this fiddle style that was kind

00:21:43.380 - 00:21:59.000

of simple but kind of sophisticated and then if you get into, if you really get into it, oh it's way d yeah his fiddling was is amazing but you have to hear him play all the stuff he could play on the fiddle, you have to hear

00:21:59.000 - 00:22:19.870

him play you know sally gooden and leather britches and orange boston special and all and all the square dance tunes and there was this just certain feel and a certain bounce. It was different, it was like the way that the fiddle carried the music had this

00:22:19.870 - 00:22:37.520

rhythm that was just, it spoke to me, it spoke to me, it was like I can do that, I want to do that, nothing is gonna stop me from doing that, I'm gonna get a fiddle, I'm gonna get over this beer of the fiddle and I

00:22:37.520 - 00:23:02.620

want to play with excitement like that. Yeah because I think I can do it I think it's just easy enough that I can do it. Well how about you? Would you mind playing a tune you learned from Kenny hall for us? Oh sure yeah, well he

00:23:02.620 - 00:25:13.650

was, I mentioned sally good and so I'll play that actually. Yeah. Dream dream yeah, give me money. Yeah, sal was good, she was a good me, she was good but her legs were wooden. God

00:25:13.650 - 00:25:40.840

have that tag in there. Yeah, you know, and and if you can pair it to other versions it's just, you know, it's elusive because the phrasings both like the same and different, it goes through all those different parts. It all comes from the eck Robertson famous

00:25:40.840 - 00:26:02.090

recording and you hear contest fiddlers play all these different versions of sally Gooden. Um but they generally have kind of a more of a Swedish kind of a feel and just kind of, it's just like you know that rare that I tried to do something that

00:26:02.090 - 00:26:36.960

would kind of demonstrate his uh I wouldn't want to say like overuse of it, but when you only are kind of using a certain repertoire of uh I want to see variations uh huh ornamentation were using kind of a limited vocabulary of those, you know, it

00:26:36.960 - 00:26:58.590

just becomes a a, it becomes a part of the sound of the music, you know? So almost every note might end with around, but it's doing that, that just kind of keeps it man, that one was so yeah, sally gooden. That was a strange kind of

00:26:58.600 - 00:27:18.060

um and I think it actually skips a beat in a couple of spots. There's like one of the parts where it's just missing 22 beads and so I can't really play that version unless someone knows that that right, I just have to take out that one,

00:27:18.070 - 00:27:39.360

that one little variation have to straighten it out. But um so um how did you meet Kenny hall? I met Kenny hall at a music camp called sweet smell. And Sweet smell is a music camp that was started in the 60s or maybe even the late

00:27:39.370 - 00:28:06.860

50's out in the Sierra Nevada foothills out there. And it's a music camp that has lots of folk musicians playing lots of different instruments and Kenny hall. Uh, he was always a kind of a um professor of sweets miller. A lot of people learned from him

00:28:07.440 - 00:28:30.550

there. So he was um, I had heard about him, I went to sweet smell and uh heard people talk about this guy and he didn't show up that year. I met him the first time I met him was on the side of the road, broken down

00:28:30.550 - 00:28:48.070

in a van with his wife on the way to sweet smell and I was leaving, I was so bummed because I'd heard, I've heard all this stuff about it. He put that, he played mandolin with his fingernail and that he was one of the um, best

00:28:48.070 - 00:29:09.780

traditional musicians in the country or in the world. That's, that's the, what he was introduced to me as you know, this is his kidney colic. He's, uh huh, a guy that's, you know, part of the sweet smell music camp community and um, and here and there

00:29:09.780 - 00:29:23.910

at that sweet smell camp. They have, you know, they have Kenny hall, Kenny Hall is one of the best mandolin players in the world for traditional music and it was specifically set out for traditional music. They don't expect, you know, him to bust out some wild

00:29:23.910 - 00:29:41.350

jazz and don't, don't expect him to hotshot with, you know, David Grisman on some, you know, um, you know, you might be disappointed if you, if you, if you're looking for the best in terms of someone who can play the fast historic or hat, if you,

00:29:41.360 - 00:30:00.740

if you're judging by a lot of, you know, the standards, A lot of people judged by standards. I was even judging by at that point, you know, because I just realized when I actually heard him play that greatness was just something so much deeper. I already

00:30:00.740 - 00:30:24.770

knew it. Already knew that too. He was like a living example of that. Like it was just so great the way he was. And so, and when you say, you know, he's one of the best mandolin players for traditional music. You're, you're saying that he could

00:30:25.240 - 00:30:49.060

take a lot of requests. That's what, you know, he could play a lot of just so much music from Mexico and from Ireland and from Scotland and from all over the place. And so, um, a typical scene, you know, like, you know, having Kenny hall and

00:30:49.440 - 00:31:11.650

neighborhoods around and people are showing up and they're just shouting out, you know, hey, play a play a Portuguese tune or play an italian tune or you know, and when he would do it, he would tend to play, he tends, he tended to play the tunes

00:31:11.650 - 00:31:35.220

that were important that they knew even tunes that they had overlooked in their own culture. You know, um, Kenny Hall Mexican tunes for one. Let's talk about those because I have, I've met people that play mexican music and you know, Alaska modi play this or do

00:31:35.220 - 00:31:55.700

you play that the ones that can be played? And it's like, well, yeah, we played that in school. We were kids elementary school, you know what I mean? And it's like, it's I realized that, wait, okay. So playing made a camera sattana or playing, you know,

00:31:55.710 - 00:32:15.300

lost chapel mucus or playing, you know, my heart tapatio might just feel like to them like, oh, it's just like playing, you know, oh, Susanna or home on the range or, you know, it's not really music that people generally go to here. You know what I

00:32:15.300 - 00:32:40.740

mean? It's, and it's sort of music that's been taken for granted, you know? And that was the thing about, about Kenny and his love of that traditional music is, um, if it was just old and had been kind of forgotten about or taken for granted or

00:32:40.740 - 00:33:00.610

just not really thought of as real music, he would give it that life again. Oman the range is a great example because he did it, he loved that song and he did all, all the parts, the verses that were shortened in the bridge. That was, I'm

00:33:00.610 - 00:33:24.410

not usually introduced to people and he did it with such a just pure love and passion and um I mean who does that? You know, who just really sits and does everyone's gonna be like, okay, if I'm gonna do something that corny or you know old

00:33:24.410 - 00:33:44.750

and like I'm gonna have to do something, I got to put like, you know, hip hop beat on it or I got to at least have and with Kenny was like, no, he, he was like, you don't really have to have that, you just because it

00:33:44.750 - 00:34:06.090

was also beautiful what it was and he would, of course he would add his own, you know, flair to it, it wasn't um like like just reciting something, but I'm just saying, you know with him, you were allowed you were allowed to play something that was

00:34:06.090 - 00:34:24.240

just simple. Mhm and treat it like real Mhm and I think that is like, that was something that really spoke to me, you know I was in Jack, I was in music school, everyone is trying to learn all their scale and I was trying to do

00:34:24.240 - 00:34:41.300

everything, everyone is trying to become everything, you know what I mean? And you can never be at all, there's always gonna be someone who can play faster, is written more tunes than you or is you know what I mean? So just the the beauty of sitting

00:34:41.300 - 00:34:57.210

down and just enjoying a simple song, there's like no real agenda to it, you know because you know it's not going to sell, you're gonna hey listen my super simple version of home on the brake on the range and I'm gonna make millions off of No,

00:34:57.220 - 00:35:17.530

you know what I mean? But uh I just thought he was the best in that in that way. So, how I met him was I was leaving Sweets, I had heard about him, I was leaving Sweet smell. He had had car trouble in the van on

00:35:17.530 - 00:35:32.460

the side of the road and I met him, I was like, hey, I heard all this great stuff about to take his hand and I was like, maybe I would get to hear you next year. It's like, okay, next year I came back to sweets Mill

00:35:34.240 - 00:35:49.210

and this is before, you know, you could just look step up on, on the internet and he had albums and stuff, but I didn't even know about that. I didn't know that he had recorded records or anything like that. Um, so I literally never even heard

00:35:49.210 - 00:36:08.070

him play. I just heard about him and then went back to Sweet smell a year later and he just, he got this, he showed up, there was all this excitement, there's crowds swarmed around him and he went into Guinness own a saucer, you know, which is

00:36:08.070 - 00:36:54.010

I should play that little snippet of that because that was how he would get, you know, I like to play turkey in the straw Kenny's was Guinness on a saucer to get things going, you know, he, and

00:36:54.010 - 00:37:11.330

then it's like, you know, are we know what young Kenny Hall wants, We know what young Kenny Hall wants, we know what young Kenny Hall wants, get us on a saucer, we know what is good for him, we know what is good for him. So I,

00:37:11.340 - 00:37:27.780

it blew my mind because it was silly as hell, it was like and it went on and on and on and on, because Kenny's blind, you see. And so he would do that song to find out who he was playing with and it was a good

00:37:27.780 - 00:37:47.180

simple tune that could just get everyone playing Yugi, here we go, that, that uh and then you go, what you're drinking, you go around the room as you'd shout out, I'm drinking a seven up, we know what young morgan wants, so you get your name, if

00:37:47.180 - 00:38:09.760

you guys, you know, and it was a way to just get the jam going to include everyone, find out what their names, find out what they're drinking. Yeah, and and I just thought like this is this Goofy guy is what all the fuss is about, I

00:38:09.760 - 00:38:29.070

was just like in love with it, I thought it was the because because it went from there right into play play a Portuguese tune and he and he started singing an italian and then all of a sudden he's just like playing some old ragtime tune and

00:38:29.080 - 00:38:48.030

it just, it went, it started from that simple, happy, very like inclusive and just deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper. And then just through that first, you know about maybe an hour or so of that original session of hearing and play, I just, I got it okay, this

00:38:48.030 - 00:39:05.770

guy, he just doesn't sound like anyone I've ever heard in my life, not even close yet, he's playing everything that everyone knows. He's playing all the tunes that I knew like stuff that I grew up on with the missing verses that I never even heard. Some

00:39:05.770 - 00:39:23.670

mexican guy comes around the corner and starts playing and then got that guy starts singing along needs the Portuguese person plays a song and they start singing and it was just the coolest thing to realize that where everyone had been trying to learn how to, you

00:39:23.670 - 00:39:45.440

know, playing a cool band or everyone had been trying to learn how to, you know, hot dog, the solo and play really fast or you know, get their chops up and that's all very good. I'm really not trying to insult battery. I have a high respect

00:39:45.450 - 00:40:10.460

for mastery of musical instruments and it's no joke. You know, you study that john Coltrane, did you stuff there is that it is very deep. Mhm. So I am but a lot of the jazz people and a lot of musicians are also multi culture, have kind

00:40:10.460 - 00:40:32.030

of a multicultural ist thing. You know, they play their music will be influenced by other people. But there was something about Kenny doing this old stuff that tapped deeper into their being able to connect with them. I had never, never just met anyone like that who

00:40:32.030 - 00:40:53.760

had really gone that route, like, you know, um and then I found out, you know how he did it, how he did, it was he was going to the school for the blind and they were trying to teach them classical music and he was learning, he

00:40:53.760 - 00:41:14.330

was more interested in learning from records and he was forced to learning from people, he learned a lot of mexican music from this guy out Louise Vasquez I think and um you know he would hang out with them learn a bunch of their music and move

00:41:14.330 - 00:41:30.070

on, he'd go and hang out at the Swiss cafe and play learn a bunch of Swedish tunes and Norwegian stuff whatever, then just move on, go play with the happy hey seeds, learn a bunch of their tunes, move on and he just kept, you know, it

00:41:30.070 - 00:41:43.640

was like every everyone who ever played with kept just adding to the repertoire. You know, it was, it wasn't like you join a band, you have that repertoire, you play that for a while then you know, it was like, and in order to play with him,

00:41:43.650 - 00:42:09.180

you had to know, just play any of it at any time and we should say, didn't he know over 1000? Yeah, there were like 1100 that were um listed and collected there um, when they were actually Vicki, Mendy Gray and terry barrett. I think we're once,

00:42:09.180 - 00:42:36.350

who documented a lot of is and actually counted and listed those tunes and Vicki actually published a music book, a few 100 of those as she transcribed and um, yeah, you just, he knew a lot of stuff. It was, you know, and it didn't matter how

00:42:36.350 - 00:42:48.650

long you played with him. Just, he would just come out with something new all of a sudden you play some tunes like wait, where have you been hiding that? Oh yeah. You know I learned that a long time ago. I just never really played it. It's

00:42:48.650 - 00:43:07.130

like a trapped way down in there. Yeah. And I mean these were pretty complex tunes when you get into, a lot of them have key changes, a lot of them, you know, they might be more simple then Mozart and a lot of stuff that you hear

00:43:07.140 - 00:43:35.290

Mozart and john Coltrane but they are, you know, it's a long time to get it right and to actually get into that level where they are internalized and memorized and complainin. So and the other thing that's notable about him is, you know, he wasn't, you know,

00:43:35.290 - 00:43:54.050

he wasn't using any devices like us, he would buy the record and he just learned it off the record by listening, he listened to it for two weeks and then you try to play the tune. Um Some of them are like you know they're not that

00:43:54.050 - 00:44:11.670

easy just to pick up on on the record. I listened to some of those records and it's like wow that was just like there's a lot there. And and I started to equate that to like well what if I I um just say like it was

00:44:11.670 - 00:44:35.510

an old time mandolin, say it was like rock and roll guitar solos that that he had done that with. Yeah, this guy would have been able to play like every guitar solo note for note, you know what I mean? He would and and without I mean

00:44:35.510 - 00:44:50.830

he did have some musical training but to show him to to teach that he did that all on his own, you know just because he thought it was cool. He thought it was so anyhow, that was the back story of how I met him and how

00:44:50.830 - 00:45:08.510

I was just became enamored with his style and wanted to go that direction. I did end up playing with them a lot, becoming friends with them and recording and we went to music camps together, go pick them up in Fresno and take them to grass valley

00:45:08.510 - 00:45:28.410

and you know, we spent hours like car rides, talking, listening to music together. Um I got, so I got pretty deep into like hit kind of the way he thought about music, even even some things that he, you know, wouldn't necessarily play at a jam session,

00:45:28.420 - 00:45:54.500

you know? But um when you hung out with them, you know, just like heal in time, talk about a lot of those things and so that helped me get a little bit more of the subtlety, you know, of it and but it was those years and

00:45:56.890 - 00:46:11.830

being indoctrinated into like, okay, now I can actually play enough old time to get by. I can play enough irish music to get by. I can play enough mexican music to get by, I can, you know, and my jazz repertoire has grown too because he also

00:46:11.830 - 00:46:32.510

knew all these like pop tunes from the twenties that were also considered a, he could play sweet Georgia brown too, but just wouldn't take a solo on it, just play the melody. And uh, so then I, I ended up having that experience myself because I had

00:46:32.510 - 00:46:54.140

a band that played mexican music when we got hired by mexican restaurants. Um I started going to irish sessions, I started going two out in the world and then finding that I could fit in, finding that I could, I could make these connections and really like

00:46:54.140 - 00:47:14.530

the mexican restaurant thing really blew my mind, you know, because I still don't really speak spanish, I can speak, I can sing a few songs in spanish. Mhm. Um but I have no idea how how it would be received. You know like my are they gonna

00:47:14.530 - 00:47:32.650

look like in my uh are they going to look at me like I'm invading their culture? You know, we just were like we wanted to do these songs and threw together a demo tape, went down to the nearest restaurant and they like this is so so

00:47:32.650 - 00:47:48.990

cool, they loved it. So they gave us our first gig and then I had a couple of years, they're playing um these mexican restaurants and they were just so nice to us, these people, the restaurant owners, the people that we play with when we play and

00:47:49.580 - 00:48:07.260

you know very little that I ever get any sort of like lose this white guy playing you know our music, it wasn't like that at all. It was like oh wow, they I would hit him by surprise, you know, and then request, you know Jalisco and

00:48:07.270 - 00:48:22.250

and stuff like that stuff that I wouldn't have known had I not known Kenny hall and this stuff that I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have known it, I wouldn't have learned it growing up, I wouldn't have learned it in music school. Mhm. Right. But it was

00:48:22.250 - 00:48:41.990

meaningful, it was you know, as a way to actually connect with people and then I've really been reflecting on that a lot lately because of all this political stuff that we've dealt with, this big divide that we've gotten and I just think back man, how amazing

00:48:41.990 - 00:49:04.300

was that? How amazing was that that I actually met someone that helped me, you know, get through to other people that I thought were so far away from me, you know, and it's not that I thought that they were like, you know, gotta I don't know,

00:49:04.300 - 00:49:23.800

it's just if it's just scary, it's just a little scary to be honest, just step foot into an environment, you're not quite sure how it's going to be received, but I spent enough time doing that to just feel um you know, I I took a bike

00:49:23.800 - 00:49:38.660

ride and and I went to I heard this mexican band, you know, a live band and they were having a little, they were doing the birthday song, I think this must have been a little birthday party or something that they were doing, and I just I

00:49:38.660 - 00:50:07.280

heard it and I was like, wow, that really takes me back, so I always play that song, you know, and you know, so he was like one of a kind person and an amazing musician, but it was this like really like this human stuff, you know,

00:50:07.760 - 00:50:33.490

because of being the fact that he had really absorbed the music around him in California and that, that he wasn't really, you know, it wasn't really like so much trying to play the music of one far away place, but just playing bits and pieces of different

00:50:33.490 - 00:50:57.660

things from all over that seemed more appropriate to me than trying to play bluegrass because um that just seemed a little restrictive, you know, in terms of trying to uh copy of music that came from somewhere else, and that Kenny had always been copying music from,

00:50:57.670 - 00:51:20.510

that was like, and just how he did it, he had no shame about it, there was no reason to, and in fact there was nothing more true because that was all really, it was reflections of his life. You know, the tunes were like, um snapshots of

00:51:20.510 - 00:51:42.500

a memory that he had and there's nothing more authentic than drawing from your own life. You can't really, you could try to imitate stuff from other places, but you know, it's being able to do that while retaining your own, you know, core. Yeah. And a lot

00:51:42.500 - 00:52:05.610

of people haven't been able to do so. Um Well what do you think about playing maybe a Portuguese tune? Um Sure. You wanna neither play the mandolin? Sure, yeah. Um Well this is the one that I think he would really play the most to get things

00:52:05.610 - 00:53:31.950

going in the Portuguese realm. Okay. Do you know the name of that one? Well he called it Father Do, Okay. Which is really, and it's spelled the F A D. O. And really they say that's a style of music. Uh

00:53:31.960 - 00:53:55.200

The Portuguese father was like a style of romance. It's usually it's kind of like slow romantic songs. Uh huh. So it's been a bit confusing because if I just look up the photo, what comes up, you know it's gonna be it's not usually gonna sound quite

00:53:55.200 - 00:54:26.560

like that yet. If I play that song to someone who's Portuguese they recognize it, they will sing it and I don't know exactly what what it's called to be honest. Um We call her father Do father that's spelled photo and uh believe he learned it from

00:54:26.560 - 00:54:47.540

a radio show called Voice of Portugal. He listened to this radio show I think it was out of Half Moon Bay. They played a lot of Portuguese music. So there was fado, there's the voice of Portugal, um there's Evita, there's the sham morita's, you're kind of

00:54:47.540 - 00:55:52.660

like fast waltzes and um yeah you know the Shammari to has the um it has a lot of times, this kind of Syncopation in it too. So that's a bit of the summary to that kind of goes, you

00:55:52.660 - 00:56:14.480

know, you're going 123123 but then all of a sudden it's 121212 like it's calling it, that's pulling against it and that was a big part of that Kenny hall sound because the way that when you start to go into that poly rhythm way that the mandolin,

00:56:14.490 - 00:56:39.420

you know the way that the notes kind of punch out and really accentuate that rhythm is cool. Do you think that his, so his repertoire came from all over but stylistically in terms of technique? Do you think he owed very much to say Portuguese musicians or

00:56:39.430 - 00:56:59.670

because he was just guessing as far as technique? He was just guessing at everything. I mean he was handed a mandolin when he was 12 by Sky A. W. D. Sanford and he started playing with his fingernail and then he said the human hand doesn't work

00:56:59.670 - 00:57:24.990

that fast. You've got a you got he was only going one way and then so you had him go both, you know back and forth, call it jiggling. So um and I mean his downs what? Okay, so if you're using a pick down is normally a

00:57:24.990 - 00:57:47.870

downbeat like you're sending the pick down. His down was usually on the offbeat. His up was usually on the on the downbeat. So like everything was just odd. He played and in the fiddle well he'd hold hold the fiddle. Usually people hold that this, you know,

00:57:47.870 - 00:58:09.230

their chin here or here. He held this fiddle here like kind of hyped up like that. So he, you know, his technique was all just wrong. Kind of or it was it was unique. It was his own he had his own way of holding it and

00:58:09.230 - 00:58:35.340

playing it. Which led to his own sound. Mm hmm. You know? Yeah. Because I was a jazz guitar major. That's no mistake. So I can play jazz standards, you know? Um But I really like this style of guitar playing that is um kind of more influenced

00:58:35.340 - 01:01:16.020

by ragtime and folk. Um Uh huh. No. Uh huh. Very nice. What was that one called again? It's called Storybook Ball. Storybook ball. Yeah. And it has a lot of fun lyrics to all about the Storybook ball characters, having a party kind

01:01:16.020 - 01:01:35.940

of a tongue twister. That's why I don't want to do it right now because I'm a little afraid I'm gonna have a with your tongue. Yeah. Um but it is, it is a really good because I have a Children's book um and I've been working on,

01:01:36.410 - 01:01:57.120

you know, pieces that reflect that or can kind of supplement that. So I've been adding to my repertoire um Things that interest me in particular are jug band songs because my book is the A. B. CS of jug band music. So I jug band songs, songs

01:01:57.120 - 01:02:22.000

for Children, songs about books, hates a storybook ball because you're talking about books, songs that are about letters, songs that are about numbers. It's a bit like a schoolhouse rock or Sesame Street and you know, it's, it's I'm I'm drawing from that kind of inspiration right

01:02:22.000 - 01:02:42.220

now because because I have one book already, you know, out there, I like to do more of them. So I have ideas about more follow up books. I'd actually like to do it. I like to make a Children's book about Kenny hall, That's one of my

01:02:43.300 - 01:03:02.810

yeah, um big next goals. I have a few might have a broadway musical, so I'm trying to write a little by little, I came up with the idea and it has a jug band theme too, so it ties into the whole jug band thing is my

01:03:02.810 - 01:03:24.550

jug band musical is called Baskerville. And then um I'm gonna uh make a Children's book about Kenny hall because I found, you know, this whole genre of Children's books about musicians, like there's a, there's a Children's book about Django Reinhardt, her Children's books that have been

01:03:24.550 - 01:03:45.200

made about, you know, that our biographical but kind of broken down in a way that that makes for a good Children's book and Kenny's life story would be amazing for that. It truly what, you know, um being blind, going to boarding school, moving, going to school,

01:03:45.210 - 01:04:03.970

leaving his home when he was six years old to go live at the school for the blind and then meeting all these different musicians from all over and learning from them and then, you know, a lot of stuff, they just kind of leave out there because,

01:04:03.970 - 01:04:21.180

you know, it's not important Children, but fast forward to where he was rediscovered in the sixties and then became a hero and shared this music that he had played with all these different people, with all these new people that wanted to following that and wanted to

01:04:21.180 - 01:04:52.030

know, you know, um, became curious about those old songs that he had like that, that everyone around him, you know, a lot of people were not that interested in it. Um, so, you know, he he's a real hero, his story is heroic by how much he

01:04:52.030 - 01:05:16.870

accomplished, how much joy he gave to people, how much inspiration he gave to people. It's, it's a human story. That's amazing just to see how much were capable of, you know, and how, you know, adversity can Um, how people can overcome adversity, stuff like that. So,

01:05:16.880 - 01:05:34.270

so I'd really like to make a children's book about Kenny Hall. Um I'm working on a series of calendars for music teachers teaching how to play in all 12 keys using the 12 months of the year. I've been developing that a lot in the last few

01:05:34.270 - 01:05:57.260

months, and that's something, you know, another print object, like, you know, it's not a book, but a calendar can be like a book, because you can put a lot of little little bits of information in it, you know? Um and then, oh, and then the musical

01:05:57.260 - 01:06:15.060

caterpillar, which is my own life story, made into a Children's book. I'm working on that to all these ideas finally came to me because um originally it's just this one idea, you know, it's like kind of a fluke, I think I, I think I wrote a

01:06:15.060 - 01:06:30.140

song that would make a good book. I had no idea is beyond that. And then people would ask me occasionally, they'll ask me, are are you going to do an A. B. CS of classical music? Are you going to do an A B. CS of jazz

01:06:30.140 - 01:06:56.720

next? And the answer is probably not, but I'm not going to rule it out because hey, maybe. Yeah, but I really want to use the abcs of jug band music to further jug band music, that style in particular. Yeah, because there's something about it, not really

01:06:56.720 - 01:07:18.240

being a style, it's literally, you're talking about homemade instruments, so you're breaking it down to the basics of the physics of music, how do you make a stream? Uh you know, there's a wind instrument, you know, it's that, it's that introduction that jug band music has,

01:07:18.980 - 01:07:40.230

that goes along with that, that age range of learning the alphabet because I remember being like that age and wanting to play on pots and pans and stuff. So I think that's the age where a lot of kids are ready to explore and start to maybe

01:07:40.230 - 01:07:57.910

even make a little band out of, you know, homemade percussion and homemade string interest, homemade kazoos, homemade, like whatever they could do that, you know, and a lot of people could use a lot of help with it, you know, because not that easy to just build

01:07:57.910 - 01:08:14.760

a washtub bass or just, you know, especially if you're not that musical, if you don't really have, you know, so I've been trying to get people more ideas. You know, one thing is like familiar music, you know, having music that you are familiar with is super

01:08:14.760 - 01:08:32.350

important. And so I think the music I learned is super important because I think it's beautiful music. I don't know if it's always the best choice for getting through to people because a lot of people don't recognize it, they might recognize turkey in the straw because

01:08:32.350 - 01:08:52.580

the ice cream song. But what I'm saying is you might get better, you might get more Interaction within a family if you all from like maybe 80s pop music, you know, and I I haven't really followed that trend of wanting to do modern music in a

01:08:52.580 - 01:09:14.680

folk tradition before. I haven't really gone that route previously, but I'm wanting to now now's the right time because um there's still a lot of really good songs too that are modern and that ones that people recognize and it's easier for them to participate with each

01:09:14.680 - 01:09:36.230

other. It's easier for them to get pulled in by something that they like and that they're familiar with. And so um, so I want to do jug band versions of lots of different things rather than lots of different things done as an alphabet song. You know,

01:09:36.230 - 01:10:01.660

there's lots of ways to grow and build on what I did and yeah, maybe when these days will be at more alphabet books. But well before we sign off, how can people find your book and your music and all that? Well, the A B CS of

01:10:01.660 - 01:10:24.680

jug band music is something you can just google and look up on facebook and instagram Youtube, all those places I think um you can find that by just googling that My name, morgan Kouchner, M O R G A N C O C H N E U

01:10:24.680 - 01:10:49.630

E R dot com is my website and that has the portal to everything. So, and I should probably update my website, I'll be working on next. So I added over like 100 videos to my Youtube channel. My Youtube channel is my name. Just um so I'm

01:10:49.630 - 01:11:16.810

on Youtube, I'm on my instagram is abc jug band, my twitter is jug band literacy. So I should probably like condense these names and you got a quicker, easier way to, you know? But I'm I'm working on it. My whole thing was designed to like stand

01:11:16.820 - 01:11:37.420

outside a book store or inside the bookstore and just play music and just get people's attention and in person like that. And then I and then the pandemic happened and my book signing tour was cancelled. And so I've never been a like and subscribe my channel

01:11:37.420 - 01:11:52.730

type of person, but I'm learning to be because I do want people to like and subscribe those things. I I I want that I want to invite them into my world that I've been creating, where I'm taking all these different things music I learned from Kenny

01:11:52.730 - 01:12:10.250

hall and my love of and the Children's books and stuff that passions I had when I was younger writing and drawing and stuff. I kind of want to get into those more because I think those would help me, you know, grow more in that writing direction.

01:12:10.260 - 01:12:24.980

I'm in kind of a unique place because I don't have, you know, I know a lot of musicians, I don't, I still don't know a lot of writers and people who have written books or published books. So there's hardly anyone I can talk to to like,

01:12:25.950 - 01:12:50.240

you know, get advice from or share ideas with. But I'm making those connections. So, um, yeah, my name and 86 of jug band music. You just type those into any search engine ultimately, and they should pop up with me and staff. Well, thanks so much for

01:12:50.240 - 01:13:05.880

your time and welcoming us into your world today and and having me. Yeah, hopefully we'll see you around town. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.