00:00:01.690 - 00:00:17.739

OK. So my name is Hazel and I'm here introducing Nancy. Um And yeah, so I guess we'll just jump in. Is there anything that you'd like to say about yourself or your um activism efforts before we start? Just a little over? No, go ahead and just

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dive in. We'll see where we go. All right. So when you were younger and first um discovering your identity, what were, I guess, cues from the world and from your own sense of self that led you to the discovery. Um Well, I grew up in a

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straight family. I had a lesbian aunt and uh looking back, I have a feeling like maybe I, I should have like, noticed that but it, I, it just seemed irrelevant to me. It was just an aunt. I don't know her life, you know, I was a

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kid. She was old, had nothing to do with me. You know what I mean? Um I was, I would say that I was straight until I was 22. Happy straight. Never. You know, it's like people somehow think that you become a lesbian because you had a

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bad experience with men or something in the old days. That's what they used to think. You used to always ask me, did you have a bad experience with men? No, no, no, never had a bad experience. Um, uh, and then when I was 22 I went

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to Laney College and, you know, you figure out your whole schedule and you go and of course I was the last to sign up because I was the newest student and everything was taken. But there was this one little table that said you could uh take

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this course history 17 A which I needed. Uh But really it was a feminist consciousness raising group. It was feminism. Nobody had ever heard of feminism before feminism was this new thing. And I was just like, I don't get a fine sign me up, I'll do

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that. I'm on board. So I went to this feminist consciousness raising class. Uh Actually I grew up in a feminist family. So, um the ideas were already there. Um But it's funny because I graduated from high school in 1968 which seems like a very long time

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ago. But uh at the time my mom would do things like um if one of my friends, if she was picking us up from high school and one of our friends was a boy, she would get in the back seat and let him drive because, you

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know, it was embarrassing to a man to be in a car if he wasn't driving, you know, I mean, you wouldn't want to embarrass man. So you would let the 17 year old drive because, and I remember just going, I am never, never getting out of,

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it's my car. I am never moving over. But I, so that's just to say I grew up in a very straight, very, you know, traditional household. So I was 22 and I went to this feminist consciousness raising class and I met some lesbians. I feel like

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I was just sort of trucking along and I made a 90 degree tournament. Wow. And off, I went, and then that was, that, that I just came out that summer and that was, yeah, I forget what the question was. That was the answer. Um So just

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going off of that, how would you, or would you say that your family's identities and views on and sexuality, gender identity? Um All that sort of stuff, would you say that affected your life or your process of coming out to them? You know, I, I was

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sort of one of those really lucky fortunate people. My, my mom and I were extremely close. My sister came out, my sister who's two years younger than I came out uh the same summer. Um I went home telling her like, all the ideas I had and

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she was like, yeah, me too. And I love that. She came out at the same time. In fact, I think we used to go to dances together and we would dance together because we were scared. I mean, there were these lesbians there, they were like lesbians

00:03:57.529 - 00:04:13.679

and we were all, you know, it's funny, we didn't know. And um, so people thought we were lovers for a long time because we went everywhere together. We want, we corrected it pretty strictly. Did I ask you a question? Um One of the questions on here

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is like, it's just like a statement. It's like, tell me about the love of your life and I'd like to hear about your answer to that. Oh, I will. Let me, let me just finish this real quick because my father had, um, when I was so

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when I was 18, it just turned 18. So it was the middle of my senior year. Um, that was back in sort of the hippie movement and people were first starting to smoke marijuana. It was this big deal. It was still a, you know, a federal

00:04:42.640 - 00:04:56.079

offense. You could, it was a federal, federal offense. Um, and my father had said to me, if you wanna smoke marijuana, let me know I have some and I'll share it with you. So I had decided I did and so I, I got stoned for the

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first time with my parents, which is probably very rare for 1916. It was very embarrassing that my parents were the ones that, but my parents were very liberal and very into um life trying to, you know, grow and change and all of that. So I came

00:05:13.380 - 00:05:28.839

home and said I slept with a woman and my father just said, well, good for you. So that's very sweet and probably very unusual for that time. So I never had to worry about that. You know, just recently there was a thing, um P flag parents

00:05:28.850 - 00:05:45.799

and friends of gays and lesbians. It's an organization that is just now 50 years old. So apparently it started in 1972. But, um, when I was listening to it on KQED, I was like, I got really emotional because my parents marched in the gay pride parade

00:05:45.809 - 00:05:59.980

in 1974 which is only two years after that. And they were some of those same, just like really early parents that were saying I love my daughter. I don't care if she's gay, you know what I mean? And, and that was really unusual at that time.

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That was not, that was not common. So my come out story was pretty, pretty easy that in that way, in terms of family. And then of course, I had a gay aunt. So, you know, it gave us a new opportunity to kind of talk to each

00:06:12.529 - 00:06:35.910

other. And that was funny. But the love of my life, well, I would say I had two loves of my life. One of them is sitting right there. Um, we've been together 32 years. Um, the first level of my life uh as, as a lesbian, uh

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was a woman named Judy. And I had been out maybe a year when I met her, I met at the Santa Rosa JC with the gay student union. Um and she had a little boy who had just turned two. And, uh, so I, I always kinda

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kidded. I, you know, I got a, a two for, I got a deal. I got a kid in the deal. Um, and, uh, we were together for five years and when we broke up, basically, she and I broke up, but I didn't break up with him

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because he was, he was my baby and he was seven then. And so, uh, actually right before COVID, the December, the day after Christmas, right before COVID. So it was still 2019. Um I got to legally adopt him. That's amazing. So, yeah, it's awesome. It was

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awesome because I mean, he was like 48 at the time. So, I mean, he's like 51 now. So, I mean, it, it wasn't about let me, you know, it was just, it was all just emotion, you know, it was just emotional. It's kind of cool. So

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she was the love of my life. I and I, um I was kind of in love where I, when we broke up, I was just, uh, I went into a five year depression because I just, I just couldn't, I just was so convinced we were going

00:08:01.179 - 00:08:19.459

to spend the rest of our lives together that I just couldn't really believe, kind of that we had broken up. But fortunately I came out of that and, um, went on, I, I adopted another child, my daughter who is now, who's 10 years younger than my

00:08:19.470 - 00:08:37.359

son. But, um, I got to be there when she was born and took her home from the hospital. Yep. Six hours old. So I know. So she um yeah, so I have the two kids. So what advice would you give to younger people, people our age

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or maybe a little older who are just beginning to explore their queer identities or in a similar situation to that? You were? What advice? Iii I guess I just have to say I just love what young people are doing because I feel like we, we like

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carved a space for the discussion, you know, like we carved space for gay uh gay and lesbian. Um I mean, it, it and, and started doing things like turning dyke into a, a playful term that, you know, I mean, it was a term that was used

00:09:19.059 - 00:09:32.840

to be cool and turned it into calling each other dikes and you know, it, you know, kiddingly like, oh, she's just a baby dike or yeah, I mean, we just have playful ways of playing with that and taking the terminology and making it our own, you

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know. Um But I think I always knew, we always knew that our community, I mean, we, our community was gay straight. And by, you know what I mean? That was like, and we always knew that there was way more than that, but you don't have the

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terms for it. You know what I mean? After a while, in a sense, the terms don't, I mean, after 50 years I went out for more than 50 years, I never thought I'd be able to say that. But uh at this point, I, I recognize that,

00:10:04.150 - 00:10:23.299

that I have so much more in common with everybody than the small than, than the few things I have just in common with other women that identify as lesbians that, that I, I feel like the terms that in a way you get past the terms. But

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I, but I, I just love that young people are it, is it from my perspective, like constantly coming up with a new term? Like, but I'm this, but I'm this, but I'm this and in a way that's great because I mean, if you had 50 people

00:10:38.679 - 00:10:50.809

in the room, you would have 50 definitions of what gender was. Do you know what I mean? I, I mean, and I, I've got two friends that are both non binary and they, we laugh because they both have completely different definitions of what that means. I

00:10:50.820 - 00:11:03.260

mean, it means completely different things to them even though they have the same term do you know what I mean? But I think that you can't, you can't have a conversation if you don't have language. Do you know what I mean? Like, if so, II, I

00:11:03.270 - 00:11:17.039

guess I would say I, I just love my advice would be keep doing what you're doing and hang out with other people who have the same conversation going on and, um, don't be afraid to, I don't know, you know, at this point in my life, I

00:11:17.049 - 00:11:33.500

look back and I just go, why was I ever scared about anything? Just live your life, like get on with it. Just you are who you are like you're here, just be yourself like you're the only one that's you, that's beautiful. Just be yourself. Come on

00:11:33.510 - 00:11:47.469

out and yes, somebody won't like it. Somebody won't like it. I guarantee uh if, if, if any of us, I mean, we three have she and her as our pronouns, we could still describe who we are and somebody wouldn't like it. Do you know what I

00:11:47.479 - 00:12:06.640

mean? So it doesn't, that doesn't matter. I guess my advice to young people would be be yourself, be your authentic self. Find people who support you, find ways to name what you feel and what you're doing and who you are and what you want and keep

00:12:06.650 - 00:12:21.070

going and, and I would say, um my other advice would be to document what you're doing. I look back now and I wish I had documented more. I wish I had saved, you know, we get, we get together now and we go, what was the name

00:12:21.080 - 00:12:33.020

of that place? We used to go? We, you know, we don't have a picture of that place. We don't have a name. I would say document, document what you're doing because what you're doing is really historic and 50 years from now. Don't, don't be surprised if

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the younger people, um, kind of discount you because I mean, I know lots of people who don't want to use the term lesbian now as they say, it's, I don't know, I've heard and people think it's exclusive or we're separatists or so I don't, I don't

00:12:47.169 - 00:13:01.770

know what it is, but to me, we fought, we fought really hard. We fought a whole society to be able to use the term lesbian and to be proud of it. And it's like, I'll go down as a lib to my dying day. Like I, I

00:13:01.780 - 00:13:19.820

feel really proud about that term and a real identity with that term, but it's because of 50 years of history with that term. But I think I love the new term. I love now they just go LBGTQ plus because if everybody got a letter for their

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identity, we would have to start having, you know, like license plates, like double letter things because there's just so many that'd be my advice going off of you talking about the fight to be able to come out and be proud of who you are, what led

00:13:36.669 - 00:13:55.390

you to that sort of activism. And I guess not as in a, in a bad, in a negative to fight so much as it was, you know, some of it is just living your life. You know what I mean? Like, II, I think at any given

00:13:55.400 - 00:14:07.239

age you, you're in some way having to say no, no, this is who I am. I have, I have to live my life. I mean, I, I know when I was your age, when I was just graduating from high school, there was a lot of pre,

00:14:07.369 - 00:14:23.780

I mean, back then, back then there was a lot of pressure. You were supposed to be virgin when you got married and we were all just going. Yeah, that's not happening. Yeah, that's not happening. And so in a way we were even then redefining our experience.

00:14:23.859 - 00:14:40.679

Do you know what I mean? And, and uh you do? And I think for us we were just a bunch of young lesbians and I'll say when I came out in Berkeley, I came out in 72 in Berkeley. Right? Oh my God. It felt like there

00:14:40.690 - 00:14:52.200

were women coming out of the woodwork, you know, I mean, there were so many lesbians when it started. This is kind of funny when it start when I, when I first came out, we had the women's bookstore and the, the women's bookstore was a single car

00:14:52.210 - 00:15:10.210

garage, a wooden single car garage that somebody had turned into their bookstore. It had benches, you know, like park benches around the outside. That was the extent of the shelving. And we had mimeographed articles stapled together and they were 10 cents each or something like that.

00:15:10.219 - 00:15:27.909

And there were like three books that was the women's bookstore. So, you just did everything. I mean, like we started having poetry readings, we started having dances, people started, um, writing articles and so then there were more articles than they had to have a little bookshelf

00:15:27.919 - 00:15:40.150

because there were so many articles and then people started writing. But now, I mean, you go to the, there, now you go to, there's a whole section of women's books. You know what I mean? It's, it's huge. You, it was just like one step in front

00:15:40.159 - 00:15:57.109

of the other, um, that we started having conferences. Um, and then there would be political things like prop eight and, and then Anita Bryant with her whole thing about you shouldn't be a lesbian in school, you know, teachers because see, I was a teacher for 25

00:15:57.119 - 00:16:12.890

years. So, um, I wasn't a teacher back when Anita Bryant was running that. But, um, I wouldn't have been able to be a new teacher if she had her thing. And I think I was an excellent teacher, you know. Um, so I think it's just like

00:16:12.900 - 00:16:24.929

1 ft in front of the others, I would say to young people today. Well, like, well, what is the activism life? Well, I don't know. You go to the gay pride parade, you meet other people, you start meeting, then you say we should stand up for

00:16:25.250 - 00:16:40.669

gun stuff. So then you march in the parade under lesbians for no, you know, weapons and stuff. I mean, it's like, it just was like 1 ft in front of the other. It's like, what had to be done. We went to all the gay pride parades

00:16:40.679 - 00:17:03.260

of course, and participated in all of that. But um lesbians in Sonoma County were incredibly organized. We had over 50 different organizations going on from everything from take back the night to uh you know, there were comedy groups, there was alcohol recovery groups, there were artist

00:17:03.270 - 00:17:16.880

groups, there were, there was a trucking group, the, the uh whole food market, not whole Foods, but there was a market. It's still actually around Santa Rosa market. So I forget what the name of it is now. But they started my girlfriend at the time, Judy

00:17:16.890 - 00:17:29.430

was one of the drivers. So she was driving trucks up and down to L A to get produce and stuff like that. I mean, people started hanging out with each other and just kind of going, we need a blah, blah, blah and then we would just

00:17:29.439 - 00:17:45.959

organize it. I was, I'm right now, I'm on several committees. I'm on a group. I'm on Sonoma County Lesbian Reunion, which we just started two years ago because a lot of us have, are getting old and we just said, you know, we've gotta get people back

00:17:45.969 - 00:18:02.729

together because we have new issues and stuff and we had, we have over 300 people on our, uh Facebook page. Now, I'm part of Sonoma County Lesbian Archives, which is a group that uh is doing interviews kind of like this. But we get some of those

00:18:02.739 - 00:18:21.130

old organizations together as many people as are still available and just do an interview with them and all of that work, all that information is now in the um San Francisco Gay and lesbian archives, those interviews. So that's a resource. Um And we've done 27 interviews

00:18:21.140 - 00:18:33.000

of groups that were going on then. So that's, I mean, you know, a thing for you to check with. And um so yeah, I mean, I'm still, I feel like I'm still and those are just things that like somebody said, well, we need to do this.

00:18:33.010 - 00:18:54.609

I was like, OK, so I think that's how it got organized. So growing up, were there any teachers or mentors or anyone like that who impacted your life significantly, whether it being in relation to your peer identity or just yourself in general? Oh God, many, so

00:18:54.619 - 00:19:08.250

many. Oh my God. Yeah, I mean, so many, I don't know, I, I, I'll tell you one story. I, so I was newly out. I it was before I came to Snowman County. So it was in the first year that I was out, I was living

00:19:08.260 - 00:19:23.640

in so soon my sister and I had rent. We're going, we had left the Bay area and we were just going up there to the Solano Junior College. Uh I think we were there for a year. So we had this little tiny house down this dirt

00:19:23.650 - 00:19:38.300

road and behind the main house, it was this little tiny, probably caretakers cottage that we were now taking care of. And um so there was an old man there. So when I first came out, I went through uh a period of just like not hanging out

00:19:38.310 - 00:19:52.099

with men at all. I mean, I wasn't a separatist in the true sense of the word because I had a father and a brother that I was really, really close to and some close family friends. And I, and I just always had to believe there was

00:19:52.109 - 00:20:04.650

a place in the world for them because they were wonderful in my life. Um But I did everything just with women. We did everything with women. I mean, even little things like I remember once we were a car, we had a Volkswagen bug, of course we

00:20:04.660 - 00:20:15.069

did because it was the seventies and everybody did. We had a Volkswagen bug and um it slid off the road, you know, into the culverts like around here. And so we had a bunch of friends there and we were like, oh shit, you know, what are

00:20:15.079 - 00:20:27.300

we gonna do? What are we gonna, are we gonna get it? And then somebody just said, well, let's just pick it up and we went, ok, so we just got a bunch of us around the car and we just picked it up and put it back

00:20:27.310 - 00:20:42.180

on the road. So, I mean, little things like that, that you just like, I mean, we were, we just did everything by ourselves. It was great. But so we were gardening and there was this old man who was a friend of the front house people and

00:20:42.189 - 00:20:51.630

he was gardening this whole section and he asked us, did we want to do a garden? And so there was some part of me like, no, I wanna only do it with women. Well, no, he's offering, it's right here. Yeah, we wanna do it with you.

00:20:52.369 - 00:21:06.189

And he was wonderful. He, and, and at one point, my friend had a motorcycle and it was broken. Something was wrong with it. And he was in the field, right? You know, it was close to us and we're trying to figure it out ourselves. And he

00:21:06.199 - 00:21:16.170

watched us and I remember thinking, don't come over, we're gonna do it ourselves. Like leave us alone. Don't come over and he didn't, he waited the longest time and then he walked up and I'm thinking he's gonna say he knows how to do it and he

00:21:16.180 - 00:21:31.089

had a wrench and he said, you might need this wrench. This would probably help. Would you like to use this? And we said yes, because that's exactly what we needed. So we took the wrench and he walked away and I remember just thinking, wow, he's like

00:21:31.099 - 00:21:45.089

he gets it. You know what I mean? Like he, he really understood like we did not want his help, we didn't want him to help, but he knew what we needed. And I, that just stood out in my mind. That was like cool. But I mean,

00:21:45.199 - 00:22:02.790

people like that, I mean, my parents were amazing. I, I was lucky I had really amazing parents. Well, was there any one specific moment of like realization that you remembered having? I know you already shared your story of about being a lesbian or any specific moment

00:22:02.800 - 00:22:25.300

that you felt was really important. Get your or a time when you felt very like, affirmed and confident in your sexuality. You know, I was really lucky. I grew up with a, with a dad specifically who was very, very sex positive. And he um he, he

00:22:25.310 - 00:22:42.560

was always just very sex positive and was always willing to talk about anything. And I remember my mom from the time I was a little kid saying um I may be nervous, I may be nervous but you can ask me anything and we did, we did.

00:22:42.810 - 00:22:56.550

And I actually remember in high school, there was a family cloud family life class and the teacher started out with this questionnaire that was 50 questions. I mean, and it was, you know, all kinds of things and I missed two things. I didn't know what an

00:22:56.560 - 00:23:15.699

APPT toy was. So that's not too surprising. And I didn't know there was one other similar kind of thing. So I was really well, really knowledgeable and really well educated around that and had parents that were talking to me. And after we started talking about, after

00:23:15.709 - 00:23:30.140

we started smoking marijuana as a family, um we would talk about sexuality, like not in a creepy way, not, not like what are you doing but just about. And my dad was very happy for me when I slept with a woman. I think he thought it

00:23:30.150 - 00:23:46.780

was a phase like I was exploring my sexual, you know what I mean? I didn't turn out to be a phase. But so I, I felt like um and then, then actually, after I broke up with Judy, I went to um the Institute for the Advanced

00:23:46.790 - 00:24:02.640

study of human sexuality in San Francisco, started working on a um a master's degree. Uh I ended up not finishing that because I got my daughter and it turns out that a new ba that as a single mom, a new baby takes up all your time.

00:24:02.650 - 00:24:12.300

A lot of work is a lot of work to do that alone. I thought you know, like how much, you know, it's not that bad because I had taken care of victor, you know, and he was two and, and I thought, you know, I'm just gonna

00:24:12.310 - 00:24:28.959

put this baby on my hip and keep going and, uh, it turned out it was more work than that. But, um, I think the big things for me was that my sister came out at the same time that made my life. It was so wonderful. I

00:24:28.969 - 00:24:50.030

mean, it was so supportive to be doing this with who, someone who'd always been my best friend. And now we were in parallel worlds. You know what I mean? Um, I, having the two kids and then my sister had a, a daughter that she adopted, like

00:24:50.040 - 00:25:03.910

from a relationship also and then she gave birth to a son three years after me. And that was, um, so we had the two kids and we did all the holidays and, and then my straight brother, my lovely straight brother didn't have any kids at all.

00:25:03.920 - 00:25:23.180

So mom and dad, the two lesbian daughters gave them their grandkids. But, uh, I, I don't know, I think having, you know, it, it's funny because being a lesbian that, that's like such a big part of my life. But an even bigger part of my life

00:25:23.189 - 00:25:40.709

was raising my kids and my career as a teacher. And do you know what I mean? It's like because in a way, once you have kids, you, your life becomes very ordinary in a way because you're, you're, you're taking them to soccer games, you're going to

00:25:40.719 - 00:25:51.109

PT A meetings. You do. I mean, it's like in a funny way. I remember walking the floor with Kate when she was screaming and just going, how many women on the planet right now are walking the floor with a baby? Do you know what I mean?

00:25:51.609 - 00:26:09.500

More straight women than lesbians to tell you the truth? You know what I mean? So, in a funny way, you know, I mean, nowadays I see a lot more lesbians having kids, but back then it was pretty rare. I mean, most lesbians that had Children were

00:26:09.510 - 00:26:22.150

from their straight relationships where they had left their husband and they still had the kids and he, and he hadn't taken them away. The other thing is we were scared all the time that, uh, that the men were gonna take the kids away. And so when

00:26:22.160 - 00:26:38.250

I adopted my daughter, I did it as a single parent, I was really relieved that there was no dad. Uh, I mean, the woman that gave birth to her didn't know who the father was had no way of finding out that sounds bad. Um, so when

00:26:38.260 - 00:26:48.819

I adopted her, I didn't have to worry about that and there wasn't any way to find out who that was. Um, so I didn't have to feel guilty about her not providing her with a dad. But at the same time I knew that I didn't have

00:26:48.829 - 00:27:05.035

to worry about somebody threatening me because I was a lesbian trying to take her away. But my son, um, his father several times threatened us and took him away at one point. And it was, uh, very scary, you know, and I, lots of women that have

00:27:05.045 - 00:27:21.395

lost their kids. So I think the big moments in my life, I mean, being a lesbian has been huge in my life and, and as I said, I'm still involved in organizations and still, you know, the vast majority of my friends are other lesbians or people

00:27:21.405 - 00:27:38.040

in the queer community. Uh But also a major part of my life is just ordinary, like everybody else. You know, I bought a house and I had a 25 year career as a teacher and I uh raised two kids and now I have two grandkids in

00:27:38.050 - 00:28:01.500

Michigan and I'm back there three or four times a year and I'm thinking about them all the time. So lots of ways my life is very ordinary. What's your proudest moment as a mother? Oh, my proudest moment as a mother. Ok. Cancer. Wow. So many moments.

00:28:01.510 - 00:28:20.900

I mean, I don't know, that's one of the toughest ones. It's, it's a hard one. I mean, you know, little things when you see your kids be successful. Um, from, from the first time they stick up for themselves or the first time they have a really

00:28:20.910 - 00:28:38.979

unique thought or they say something funky that makes you go. Oh, ok. They're gonna do well in this world. I don't know. To, um, you know, my both kids, uh, graduated from college and my son got his masters and watching my son II, I guess probably

00:28:38.989 - 00:28:57.420

the, one of the sweetest moments is watching your own kid become a parent. Uh, watching my kids have healthy relationships. Makes me feel like I did something right. You know, if they are confident in the world and they can move in the world and they have

00:28:57.430 - 00:29:19.439

healthy relationships with their partners, both my kids are straight. Um, and they're in good relationships and they're happy. I think that's as a mom that, I mean, I don't, I don't, I think that's it. That's, that's the goal, isn't it? Get him to launch the launch

00:29:19.449 - 00:29:40.949

and have happy lives, you know? Yeah. Oh, sorry. I was just gonna say, like you raised teenagers at one point, like I did. How would you say, like, the diff, what would you say? The big differences are between teenagers back when you raised teenagers than teenagers

00:29:40.959 - 00:29:58.719

nowadays? Well, in all fairness, I don't know because I'm not raising a teenager now. Um, I, I would say one of the, I think one of the major differences is technology. I mean, uh, when my daughter was going to parties, I didn't have any way of

00:29:59.119 - 00:30:12.640

knowing where she was. I mean, if she left the party and went somewhere else. I had no way of knowing that. Um, nowadays I think as a parent you can just have, you know, a three program, 360 you, unless they leave the phone and go, you

00:30:12.650 - 00:30:24.250

know, you can at least get a hold of them. I mean, we didn't have cell phones so raising a kid without a cell phone. I mean, I look back, I, there were, I remember nights when I was just pacing the floor because she was an hour

00:30:24.260 - 00:30:38.520

late getting home and I didn't know, did that mean she was an hour late getting home or the that I was gonna now be launched into her were looking for a missing child. Do you know what I mean? That's a horrifying feeling. That's the worst. Did

00:30:38.530 - 00:31:01.079

you, um, do you have any advice for, like, kids and how they should come up to their parents? Like, especially if their parents aren't, like, specifically super accepting of like queer identities. I don't know. That's so, it's so hard, like, because your relationship with your parents

00:31:01.089 - 00:31:15.489

is so fundamental. And so, I mean, I watched so many friends struggle with that over the years. Uh, and I mean, in some ways, I think it was worse when we were coming out. I mean, I, I know lots and lots of people who lost, their

00:31:15.500 - 00:31:29.550

parents, lost their friends, lost all their friends when Kelly came out, all of her friends just said, oh, God, you're a lesbian. We don't want to deal with you like that was that, you know, uh, at least now, I mean, every TV show has a gay

00:31:29.560 - 00:31:42.540

person on it. Do you know what I mean? Like, at least, at least we're surrounded with the idea that lesbians aren't all these sort of lurking in the corner trying to grab Children people. You know what I mean? Like, that was sort of the impression people

00:31:42.550 - 00:31:57.959

had now we know they can, we see them on TV, being, you know, like modern family. I mean, God, that Ellen degeneres, you know, like Will and Grace. But every show now has a gay character in it. You know what I mean? So, at least parents

00:31:57.969 - 00:32:17.449

have some more ideas about what that could be. But if you're in a really intense religious family, God, I, I don't know. I don't know what my advice would be. Be careful. I don't know. I don't, I don't think that there's like some little secret out

00:32:17.459 - 00:32:34.400

there that I could impart that nobody else knows. I don't, I don't think that's the case. I think every family is different and everyone's situation is different. I would say don't out somebody else, absolutely don't out somebody else. But, um, you are not doing them a

00:32:34.410 - 00:32:50.089

favor to do it on your terms, let them do it on their terms even if you disagree. But, uh, I don't know. I, I wish I had some good advice for that. I don't, how do you think your teenage self would feel about both? How your

00:32:50.099 - 00:33:08.189

life has evolved and just how the world has evolved in general since when you were growing up? Well, you know, I was born in 1950 so it was right after war. My dad got back from the war in World War Two, married my mom. We're part

00:33:08.199 - 00:33:24.069

of the baby boomer thing. And I think growing up as a baby boomer, we really felt like everything was possible. You know what I mean? I was fully convinced that I would grow up and buy my own home and have my own life and be able

00:33:24.079 - 00:33:35.719

to have a good career and that I was convinced I would be able to make as much money as my parents made and that I would be able, you know, uh all of that must be nice. Right? And I, I don't think you guys have that

00:33:35.729 - 00:33:50.859

same sort of almost promise or guarantee or like, well, of course, that's how life is gonna be. So I grew up with that as an assumption. Just an expectation. I, I think that's why there are people my age who are or younger people who are angry

00:33:50.869 - 00:34:08.330

men and specifically white men who are angry because they grew up with this promise that they are gonna get this thing that somehow hasn't materialized. You know what I mean? But I think your generation is growing up more with a, well, like, good luck. I, I

00:34:08.340 - 00:34:28.229

like that. That worries me. That, I mean, I think that's very different and I think as a parent of a teenager now I would be, um, side, it would be different. You know what I mean? Uh, I don't know. I mean, I guess, I think the

00:34:28.239 - 00:34:40.979

best financial investment I ever made was my house. So I would still encourage people if you can get into a house. Get into one. You know what I mean? Even if you start with a starter or whatever. But, um, getting made, being able to retire comfortably,

00:34:42.059 - 00:34:59.049

possible, really easier and possible. But I don't know, advice to younger people. How do you think your teenage self would feel about how your life is right now? Do you think you'd be surprised or? Well, in some ways, I feel like I've just been really lucky

00:34:59.059 - 00:35:12.280

in my life. I've, I've had good health. The people my family have good head have had good health. I've, I got a good career. I mean, I was a teacher for 25 years. I loved it before that. I did several different things. I was a picture

00:35:12.290 - 00:35:23.389

framer. Uh, I mean, I started out as a gardener when I was going to college and then I was, had a, was a picture framer for a while and did a, did a bunch of different things. Had a, uh, I had my own little business for

00:35:23.399 - 00:35:42.600

a while, um, and selling sex sinuous accessories. Um uh, but I did all those things and then became a teacher for 25 years. So I had my career. I have the retirement, which is what I thought I would have, would be a retirement. I have that.

00:35:43.000 - 00:35:57.290

Uh, my Children are, I had two Children, which is what I wanted to do. They're grown, they're doing well. My grandkids are doing well. Uh, we have enough money to travel now and we're, we're leaving in five weeks to go on a Baltic sea cruise for

00:35:57.300 - 00:36:10.770

three weeks, which I'm really excited about. So, I think if I looked back, if I was my teenage self looking up, I'd go, oh, you did it? I mean, I feel like all the things that one that I was gonna judge my life by, you know,

00:36:10.780 - 00:36:22.469

did I get a house? Did I get a career? Did I get a partner? Did I get my Children grown? Did I get, you know, all these things I've accom I've accomplished like all the major things that I want to accomplish in my life. I've accomplished.

00:36:22.479 - 00:36:38.229

So I think, I think my teenage self would go good job. Ok. This is a little bit of a separate note. But when gay marriage was first legalized, how did that make you feel what was going on? Oh, my God. You know, on your head when

00:36:38.239 - 00:36:53.219

it was finally really? Legal because we had friends that, you know, um, Gavin Newsom was, uh, did a thing where he started marrying people in San Francisco and we had several friends that went to that and got married and we didn't do that because we knew

00:36:53.229 - 00:37:10.189

that that was not gonna really fly, you know, as it didn't. Um, but, uh, Phyllis Lyon and Del Martin, do you know who they are? They started one of the first lesbian organizations, daughters of bliss and they were very involved in the lesbian movement. Anyway, th

00:37:10.370 - 00:37:25.629

those were the les, they were in San Francisco. And so when Gavin Newsom was gonna marry a couple, he married them because they'd been together. I, I don't know. Forever. Right? 60 years or something at that point. So he married them and then when it actually

00:37:25.639 - 00:37:35.719

did become legal in California, Kelly came home that day and she and I was standing in the kitchen and she just walked in, we'd already been together 17 years and she walked in and she said it's legal to get married. Do you want to get married

00:37:35.729 - 00:37:48.120

now? And I went, yes, let's do it. You know. So, I mean, it was more like a, it wasn't like down on a knee. It's like we'd already been together for 17 years. I'm like, well, pretty confident that this is gonna work. I think we're safe.

00:37:48.129 - 00:38:01.080

We can go for it. So we did. I mean, that was in May I think, and we got married in July and I got that summer, like, it was so fun, it was a fun summer because so many of my friends got married. So we went

00:38:01.090 - 00:38:12.379

to so many different kinds of weddings that summer. It was like, it was like being in your twenties again, you know, when all, when all my friends were getting married from my twenties, I, I was going to their weddings but I wasn't getting married, you know.

00:38:12.810 - 00:38:30.169

And, uh, so we had this summer of weddings, like all these different weddings and, but then, I mean, imagine this. So now I'm legally married in California. But when I go to visit my family in Utah, I'm no longer married. Right. I was no longer married.

00:38:30.459 - 00:38:47.919

So, Kelly and I had to take our papers with us that said we gave each other power of, you know, health care, power of power of whatever that was called. Um, but I, but imagine that you're married here but you're not married there. It's just, I

00:38:47.929 - 00:38:58.639

mean, and, and where does that count? Like, well, if we'd been in a car accident and she was in the hospital, I'm not her sister, I'm not her, I'm nothing. So I wouldn't be able to go in and hold her hand. Do you know what I

00:38:58.649 - 00:39:14.629

mean? It's like, it was a bizarre time that went on for five years and then it was legal nationwide and now it's so I guess it kind of amazes me because when I came out in 72 it was still illegal. Illegal. You imagine this, there were

00:39:14.639 - 00:39:39.129

laws against, um, lesbian behavior having sex. I couldn't legally have sex. And now what, 51 years later I'm married in all 50 states. I mean, that's, that's amazing change. That's amazing change. Now, right now we've got this huge kick back. I mean, they're passing all these

00:39:39.139 - 00:39:53.520

laws against trans kids and, and drag queens for Christ's sakes, drag queens and, you know, they're just like grabbing something that is a symbol that they can throw some laws against, you know what I mean? But II, I don't, I don't think they're gonna turn the

00:39:53.530 - 00:40:06.729

tide back. I just, I don't, I don't think they can turn it back. You know what I mean? And I just think 50 years from now they'll, 50 years from now you guys will just be going, oh my God. I can't believe, you know, 50 years

00:40:06.739 - 00:40:24.270

ago we were sitting there doing this and now this, do you know what I mean? Hopefully, I mean, I hope for the queer community. That's the case. How did you feel when you heard that Roe V Wade had been overturned, devastated, devastated because I'll tell you

00:40:24.280 - 00:40:41.530

what, when I was in high school, I had a friend who, who actually had a, had her baby, she got pregnant, had her baby. Um, the only birth control I had when I first started sex was condoms, which we were pretty careful. Obviously, we were careful

00:40:41.540 - 00:41:06.169

enough, but you always knew that that might not work. Um, and abortions were illegal and then they became legal when I was, I think when did they become legal? 2019, 7072. Ok. So just when I was coming out, they became legal 72. I think so. Anyway.

00:41:06.179 - 00:41:22.379

Ok. Um, yeah, so in my lifetime and I remember, I remember the stories about people dying from back alley abortions. I know a woman that had a back alley abortion and she actually went on to be able to still have a child after that. I mean,

00:41:22.389 - 00:41:38.689

it was, it was, it was dark ages, horrifying stuff, you know, stuff that you would expect to hear from the from, I don't know, you know, and then to have that turned, I just realized that like, um, yes, some people have the money to travel to

00:41:38.699 - 00:41:52.580

California to have an abortion. But I remember when, when people were trying to have an abortion back then, I remember it being $300 which back then would have been, I mean, we bought a brand, you know, you could buy a brand new Volkswagen for $2500. So

00:41:52.590 - 00:42:06.850

you can imagine what $300 was, it was next to impossible. I mean, how does, how do like if, if you guys had to like go to Texas to get an abortion and you're gonna have to drive and pay for gas and pay for hotels and pay

00:42:06.860 - 00:42:21.040

for, like, how would you come up with $3000? Everybody goes, I, I wouldn't, I couldn't. So what? So you would, depends how desperate you are. If you think you're gonna lose your whole family because you're now pregnant, then you're gonna try some back alley thing and

00:42:21.050 - 00:42:36.530

we're gonna have, we're gonna have horror stories again. I mean, that's the truth. We're gonna end up with horror stories again. And that is to me just unbelievably tragic and just, I guess I have this feeling like why is it that people are still pretending that

00:42:36.540 - 00:42:55.010

that sex doesn't exist or that, why are they still pretending that sex is like, I mean, I like, I mean, sex is so basic and it's, you know, kids are interested when they're young and they're, and you know, they act like that. Nobody in high school

00:42:55.020 - 00:43:11.550

is having sex. I'm like, what like, well, unless, unless things were really different in my day, there's a little bit going on just saying. And so I, I don't understand this kind of stuff of like acting like, no, you can't have, you can't have birth control

00:43:11.560 - 00:43:26.439

and you're not and you can't have abortions and you're, it doesn't make any sense to me. I don't, I don't understand the thinking. I don't understand how any adult, any sexual adult would not understand that everybody's having sex. So, so to make it illegal or I

00:43:26.449 - 00:43:45.070

don't get it, I don't get it. This doesn't make any sense to me. And it also seems really uncompassionate. Not uncaring like everybody should make their own decisions. Well, I only have one more question. I don't know if either of you have anything else to ask.

00:43:45.080 - 00:44:04.919

So I'll put that up just ok. So my, my last question I'll just wrap it up is what is the most rewarding thing about growing up and getting older? No, it's pretty sweet to be. I'm 73. It's pretty sweet. I've been retired eight years. I have

00:44:04.929 - 00:44:18.750

enough money to live comfortably, do all the things I want, travel to see. My kids is pretty, it's pretty sweet to reach this point in my life and feel like uh my life was a success that I got to do the things I wanted to do

00:44:18.760 - 00:44:35.020

that I, the things that I wanted to accomplish that I did feeling like I, I feel like I did a good job with my kids. It's good. I think if you can get to that point in your life and feel like it's good. I think I

00:44:35.030 - 00:44:53.040

helped a lot of people. I mean, as a teacher, I know I helped a lot of Children. Um I think I've been a good friend to many people. Good family member. It's a perfect ending because I think we're out of time. 10 seconds. Thank you. So

00:44:53.139 - 00:44:59.810

much, you know, I'm gonna go home and go. I should have said this, I should have said that I gotta meet with him again because I gotta tell.