00:00:12.240 - 00:00:25.980

like to thank you for being our first participant in the Sonoma County government Aural history project. We're very honored to have you for this position. It's a pleasure to be here, Tony. Um, Mike, would you please tell us what your most recent role was with Sonoma

00:00:25.980 - 00:00:43.870

County government? Yeah, I was the cinema county administrator until my retirement in 2000 for and the number of years you participated in that position were how many? Approximately five years would you please describe to us? The chief functions that it's a very large job. I know.

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But if you could go through those functions, we'd appreciate that. Sure. I think the primary responsibilities of the county administrator First of all involved the preparation and monitoring of the county budget. Um, next would be responsibility to provide the Board of Supervisors with management advice on

00:01:03.480 - 00:01:25.680

any issue that comes in front of them recommendations and such. And, uh, and then finally, to attempt to coordinate and oversee all the activities of county government. Well, um, if you were to look at the the highly varied functions that you filled is county administrator, What

00:01:25.680 - 00:01:43.650

would be some elements or aspects of this work that might be of greater importance than the public might be aware. That's kind of a difficult question to respond to. I mean, I guess my first reaction is to that is, you know, what kind of wonderful things

00:01:43.650 - 00:01:59.190

did I accomplish that I didn't get any credit for? And I don't think that's really of concern, because I think one of the primary responsibilities of a county administrator eyes to work behind the scenes to get the job done and let others take the credit, if

00:01:59.190 - 00:02:13.510

you would in a political environment such as we operate in. But I will throw out just a couple of things that I suppose you didn't get a lot of recognition, but I think were important, probably starting with in the early years. When I first came to

00:02:13.510 - 00:02:29.500

work for the county, there was a real need Teoh clean out some some of the deadwood. There were a lot of people working here that really, in my opinion, weren't qualified to do the job. There certainly were a number of people that were outstanding, but there

00:02:29.500 - 00:02:43.660

were a number of department heads that just really got their positions by age and attrition and not in a served by qualifications something. One of the things that that I tried to do that we did over the years was to bring in people who were qualified

00:02:43.660 - 00:03:02.880

to do the jobs who were professionals and sort of had a positive attitude about serving the public. Um, I I suppose that maybe the second thing that I would offer is sort of the the collaborative environment that we've endeavored Teoh and still over the last 10

00:03:02.880 - 00:03:18.930

15 20 years, in particular with our labor organization, really sort of change that that whole culture, But in terms of how we deal with each other at the county, the public and in our cities, one of the things that I worked very hard to do was

00:03:18.930 - 00:03:33.020

to improve the relationship with the city of Santa Rosa, which I think was improving, at least at the time. I left very interesting. Would you say that what? One of the things you brought to this position was a sort of change of philosophy, of management, I

00:03:33.020 - 00:03:46.000

suppose. Uh all right. When I came here in the seventies, Cinema County was a bit of a sort of a cow county it was. It was were like I came from Marin County and I think at least I sort of felt that we had a little

00:03:46.000 - 00:04:00.060

more progressive management style. And it was my intent to try to introduce that up here and in the process. I think I learned some things to from the people that were here. Inevitably, you come into an organization with lots of good ideas, but you have to

00:04:00.390 - 00:04:17.140

spend some time learning this sort of culture of that place. Absolutely. And there definitely is a cinema county culture. I imagine there is. Am I right in thinking that you had to pretty much revamp the whole approach to personnel? Well, I certainly didn't do it single

00:04:17.140 - 00:04:34.280

handedly. I mean, there were a number of people that were involved in the cinema counties, civil service system. It always has been, and theoretically people gain their positions based based upon marriage. But I think there was sort of an old school attitude that needed to be

00:04:34.490 - 00:04:55.240

changed. And I think that's what occurred over the last 15 or 20 years. Are there crises that come to mind in the years that you were county administrator? Well, lots and certainly during the period that I was another positions assistant county administrator in general services director

00:04:55.240 - 00:05:11.390

and sort of starting from the top of my list lows be at the top of my list is the dealings with the federal court, the Turko lawsuit, which ultimately involved the construction of a new county jail now. But it was a crisis that the county dealt

00:05:11.390 - 00:05:27.150

with a fiscal crisis and that we dealt with for something in the order of 10 years. Uh, in the other crisis, that sort of we dealt with it on a year to year basis was our dealings with the state of California. And it's really kind of

00:05:27.820 - 00:05:45.840

unfortunate that the state of California counties are subdivisions of the state of California. State of California is sort of like our big brother to tell us what to do. And in my opinion, they have never don't today have their fiscal act together and have a tendency

00:05:45.840 - 00:06:02.550

to look to county government to help bail them out. And the impact that that had upon us is that way never could deal, um, with long range planning, we always had to deal with state and her fiscal situation on it on a year to year basis.

00:06:03.520 - 00:06:17.810

I mean, there were other crisis is that I dealt with me and one of a large number of people that were dealing with them. Certainly the situation with the county hospital where we were fortunate to be able Teoh, get out of the hospital business, which isn't

00:06:18.440 - 00:06:35.300

a good business for a county government to be involved in and bring in somebody like Sutter to take over that that operation were these things. I'm very intrigued by the relationship you speak of with the state of California. Visa vee. It's county. Is that uniquely California?

00:06:35.300 - 00:06:54.240

In your view? You know, I think it is. I mean, I suspect there are other states that have a somewhat similar relationship. But there's certainly been a history in California, off the sort of state of California is dictating what counties do and, uh, having a tendency

00:06:54.240 - 00:07:09.230

Teoh tell us what to do and how to do it, but not be able to do the same thing in the same way themselves, right? So I have hypocrisy. If you would non reciprocity anyway, exactly. Just don't they expect a lot, but don't fell through on

00:07:09.240 - 00:07:28.120

things. Have you noticed any changes in the time towards the end of your 10 year position? And I think there certainly have been relationships that have improved at at the staff level and there definitely are legislative representatives from our area that are sensitive to the local

00:07:28.120 - 00:07:42.810

situation. It's always the irony that it's the people from the Board of Supervisors and city councils that go on to the Legislature and yet seem to sort of forget their roots. But I wouldn't necessarily say that that's been the case here. We've had some very good

00:07:42.810 - 00:07:56.700

people and we've had some good relationships up with state. But from the perspective of local government is just one great big giant bureaucracy with a lot of problems trying to tell us how to run our business. And yet we think our track record speaks for itself

00:07:56.700 - 00:08:11.130

that left alone when left alone, we run state programs successfully and we take care of the needs of the people at the local level. When we're interfered with by the state government, we have problems right in a sense, the heavy hand of that sort of federalized

00:08:11.140 - 00:08:32.050

government overseeing the local. It's just less efficient in exactly. Yeah, it's an interesting point. Um, speaking of things that are unique to place, I'm curious what you might think. Having, as you mentioned, come from Marin. Previously. What are the things that are uniquely Sonoma County about

00:08:32.050 - 00:08:47.690

the functioning of Sonoma County government? Well, there are two things that come to mind problem and for sure, at the top of the list of the most important is and I think I Touched on previously is the collegiate ality. It's really unique in Sonoma County that

00:08:47.940 - 00:09:04.160

our elected and appointed officials are board members on our union representatives, and the rank and file work together as a team to accomplish problems. And if you travel around the state to other counties, that just doesn't seem to be the issue that a lot of lot

00:09:04.160 - 00:09:20.610

of acrimony, a lot of maneuvering and turf issues, and we just don't have that in Cinema County. And it is really helped in terms of implementing a lot of programs that I think other jurisdictions are envious of. And I mean, I think, generally doing a good

00:09:20.610 - 00:09:39.030

job. There are some other areas, and perhaps it's just because I'm more familiar with cinema than than other counties and have been here a long time. But I think the whole issue of fiscal conservatism Sonoma County is fiscally very conservative. And sure, it probably goes back

00:09:39.030 - 00:09:56.090

to the the rural roots of of the county. But it's been instilled in the county workforce in the county administration, as far back as I can remember, that we don't spend more than we bring in. We don't run state programs unless the state gives us the

00:09:56.280 - 00:10:12.010

the money to fully run the program, even if it's a wonderful thing. And we put money away for a rainy day. So the county facilities over the years, or probably not as shiny and new, is in some other places and and the county has done without.

00:10:12.020 - 00:10:27.920

But we always balanced the budget. There's always been a little bit in the bank for a rainy day, and I think it's spoken well for the county. Would you say, therefore, that many California counties air not so fiscally responsible and are not noted for always balancing?

00:10:27.930 - 00:10:42.470

That's my opinion on when I think they always balance their books because they're obligated to do that by law. But there are a lot of magic tricks that they played A, you know, to bring things into balance in Rob Peter to pay Paul and you are

00:10:42.530 - 00:10:57.780

always sort of dealing with the monthly fiscal crisis is, and we've not have that had that issue here at all in cinema case I. I think that is really unique. Interesting. Would you say that? Is there a connection between the fiscal conservatism and the sense of

00:10:57.900 - 00:11:16.080

perhaps uniquely heightened responsibility towards fiscal issues? Seen in Sonoma County with the Khalidi ality and with the sort of happily functioning government? I don't know. I'm not sure that, you know, in a sense, they're the team gets together, and there's a lot of bad feelings about

00:11:16.080 - 00:11:29.150

the fact that were so tight, and we don't want to take, ah, fiscal risk. But I think people respect that, and I think people have gotten past that, and we are gonna operate that way. And so let's move on. And I think it's tends to be

00:11:29.150 - 00:11:45.990

a difficult issue with with the community when it comes to social programs, because there are needs in the community and it's tantalizing in terms of programs at the state or the federal government offer us. But the risk in terms off utilizing county resource is that our

00:11:46.000 - 00:12:03.580

that, our dear, is something that the county has traditionally backed away from. So some hard decisions have to be made to be so responsible Fiscally? Absolutely. Yeah. Um, could see in your one thing I neglected to ask you, if you don't mind, we'd go back slightly.

00:12:03.740 - 00:12:21.910

Could you review for me? For us, what your previous experiences, either with Sonoma County before your county administrator or it Marin or anyplace else your local government responsibilities? Well, I after I graduated college, I worked in, worked for Kraft Foods, is an accountant and work for

00:12:21.910 - 00:12:39.000

an import coffee company in San Francisco. But I'm my first opportunity. County government was down in Marin County and I was a budget analyst there for six years, moved up to Cinema County in 1973 as deputy county administrator, held that position for about a year, and

00:12:39.000 - 00:12:55.390

there was a major reorganization of county government, and actually the position was eliminated and sort of found myself in kind of an interesting position. But I applied for one of the department head positions, which is ah, general services director in charge of a lot of service

00:12:55.390 - 00:13:16.200

functions at the county and was successful in being selected for that position. So I held that position for 10 years as a department, then in the eight mid eighties, had an opportunity to come back into the county administrators office as assistant county administrator under then County

00:13:16.200 - 00:13:35.180

Administrator Leonard Warton and held that position under several county administrators for 15 years. Then in the year 2000 after the what was really the untimely death of the former county and ministry or Tom Shaw Flynn. I was appointed county administrator, and I held that position for

00:13:35.180 - 00:13:53.530

the final five years of my career. So the total number of years with Sonoma County government would be 31 years had That's wonderful, remarkable, remarkable. Going back to the issue of how you might have seen things change. Having that kind of 31 year vantage point, I

00:13:53.530 - 00:14:08.090

would be interested. I know we've sort of talked a little about this, but not just the changes you might have seen in Sonoma County government. But the changes in that time frame you've also witnessed, sort of on the larger context of California counties. Well, I mean,

00:14:08.100 - 00:14:21.860

in terms of the county coming from Marie, and I have to admit, I probably had a little bit of Ah, a bias or whatever you know Marin is is kind of a unique place. And you come up here and I think there's there's a little bit

00:14:21.860 - 00:14:36.990

of a tendency to to misjudge this place. I think there were there, was there well off a lot of good things going on that that maybe work you weren't aware of. And just because somebody comes in and jeans and a T shirt doesn't necessarily mean that

00:14:37.000 - 00:14:53.000

they aren't some very responsible individuals. So and I think I learned a lot in that regard. But in terms of what's taking place in the county, I think that Sonoma County in the seventies and eighties and my opinion was fairly isolated from from the Bay Area

00:14:53.010 - 00:15:11.770

in the issues that we were dealing with were rural Zonda Cinema County issues, and that's not the situation today. We're very much a part of the Bay Area, and the issues of traffic and housing on development and crime that there is facing were part of the

00:15:11.770 - 00:15:31.840

bay area. We're right in in the middle of it, and I think there was a tendency for people Teoh have to leave the county, whether it was for, um, dining or theater or just didn't the various activities were going on in San Francisco, and that's that's

00:15:31.840 - 00:15:48.770

all changed in the hall, you know, sort of introduction of the wine industry. And I guess it was it was here, but it was fairly quiet. That's such a big part of our culture now. So I think we're Cinema County now is a fairly sophisticated, almost

00:15:48.770 - 00:16:02.580

in an urban area. That's a big change. But so it really it would be fair to say that 31 years ago it was highly agricultural and sort of tone that that was in my opinion. I mean, I think that there was a lot of history, a

00:16:02.580 - 00:16:20.860

lot of tradition. There were families and individuals that had been sort of a part of the fabric fabric accounting for a long, long time, and there were a few very bright, dynamic individuals that were kind of control of the the county, which I think could take

00:16:20.860 - 00:16:35.000

place in that kind of an environment and can't when you're talking about 4 500,000 people in nine cities and all the activities that are going on here now, well, a big part of this shift from agricultural to sort of semi urban or certainly suburban setting would

00:16:35.000 - 00:16:50.360

be, would it not? The growth of Santa Rosa itself, which has become a pretty major city? Absolutely. I don't think there's any question about that. And, you know, obviously having I work for the county for as many years as I did the relationship between the county

00:16:50.360 - 00:17:06.340

of cities. Oh, spent a very interesting one. Yeah, you mentioned that. That was a very important thing to sort of, that you had been glad to see improve over time. There. There was just an awful lot of acrimony and bad feelings. A lot of history. Ah,

00:17:06.350 - 00:17:18.080

a lot of posturing between the City Council in the board over the years. And I and I don't know that some of it goes all the way back to the fact that the county dared to move the county center from downtown courthouse square out to the

00:17:18.700 - 00:17:36.430

the boonies is what it waas and a lot of issues around services that the city provides that the county doesn't pay for. And you know you can. You can turn it around the services that the county provides. The city people get for nothing. And they were

00:17:36.430 - 00:17:51.820

just also big, big turf battles over that. And yet, when you stop to think of it, both organizations are here to provide services toe the citizens, and it just seemed like on people, finally, sort of in my opinion, So that came around to the realization the

00:17:51.820 - 00:18:05.830

last five or six years that working together we could achieve more than slinging mud. You're still issues that are important to both. And they're still times when people are going to take a stand and I can see the whole redevelopment issue that sort of popping up

00:18:05.830 - 00:18:21.170

again between the city and the county. Very, very delicate. You know, both sides. You have very strong opinions about it. I'm familiar with the Joint Powers Agreement as it pertains to the library system. Does that extend into other realms in the county? Also, it doesn't mean

00:18:21.170 - 00:18:37.470

that's probably one of the biggest ones that was, I believe, established in the seventies. If I'm not staking and it's been very successful worked very well. But there's a joint powers agreement now that's governing ambulance services practically throughout the county. That I think is in radio

00:18:37.470 - 00:18:52.270

communications. That's working fairly well. And there are some other joint powers. Agreements and contracts mean sheriff's services in cities is being operated in that manner. So that sort of thing has has worked out well. If you were toe, think of it conceptually. What is your view

00:18:52.280 - 00:19:08.890

on the merits of joint powers arrangements to my experience, it's quite it's semi unique. Anyway, I think it works quite well. Obviously, you've gotta have the parties that get along together and, you know, we're both sort of committed to the same goals and now me. So

00:19:08.890 - 00:19:23.640

you've gotta have some people sort of operating the Joint Powers authority that air that air competent, and they're sort of carrying out the wishes of the principles. But I think it's a it's a that's an excellent device for for local government. We're so constrained in terms

00:19:23.640 - 00:19:38.730

of state law on what you can and can't do in city boundaries and district boundaries and county boundaries. And so something like a joint powers authority where the jurisdictions could come together and carry out some function. I think it's very valuable. I know they're doing more

00:19:38.730 - 00:19:55.400

and more that down and down and Marin County for radio communication and such. Do you think it's is it in any way a response to strictures of state requirements that that counties find these joint powers arrangements to be constructive? I definitely think it is in terms

00:19:55.400 - 00:20:12.170

of, you know, the ray of tools that you have joined forces with some energy and carry out some activity. They're few and far between, and a Joint Powers authority is one of those works. It's very interesting, Um, speaking of jumping back to the issue of the

00:20:12.170 - 00:20:32.850

agricultural nature of the county, that sort of predominance of that as an emphasis. When you first joined the county government, I'm interested in knowing what you see. The shift towards sort of mono agriculture with with wine has been How has that changed? The Coney curious well,

00:20:32.850 - 00:20:57.870

and certainly the wine industry has a great deal of influence in the county, and there's a considerable amount of what was primarily traditional farmland that is now a vineyard. But but I think there's also, you know, a strong feeling in this county that their other forms

00:20:57.870 - 00:21:14.970

of agriculture that we're here previously that for a lot of reasons are important to the community started need a sort of a bounce economy that it's important to have both. Yes, do you personally sort of shift that way? I've been here five years, and I've seen

00:21:15.180 - 00:21:31.270

a steady progress towards more and more vineyard. Oh, absolutely. I don't think there's any any question about it. And I just think, you know the economics of it or such that, uh, that the wine industry is thriving and some of the other agricultural areas such as

00:21:31.270 - 00:21:50.050

apples, and are not doing that well. And the concern, I think, is down the road. You may have some problems in the in the wine industry or when there may be challenges from other other countries. And to put all your eggs in one basket so to

00:21:50.050 - 00:22:11.610

speak is dangerous Exactly between that very fact. And the fact of a potential sort of a great plague or something is pretty worrying. Wondering, How do you see the county responding to the demographic movement towards us being just north of the city? There, I think inevitably

00:22:11.610 - 00:22:25.230

a lot of pressures. People want to live here, but But I think the infrastructure is slow to respond specifically 101 another thing. Well, of course, the that isn't something that the county has under its control or the city. That's what it takes us back to work

00:22:25.240 - 00:22:41.270

our state issue. You have to get up into Sacramento, fight with them for for funding, you know. And I think that's sort of the key to what's gonna happen in the future with the demographics and such is the county general plan. And I think it's been

00:22:41.270 - 00:22:55.520

fairly successful, and I think that the county and the cities, for the most part, have controlled growth mean there there has to be growth, and the young people need toe, have a place live. But it has to be done in such a way that it doesn't

00:22:55.520 - 00:23:08.870

sort of defile the environment. I think that the politicians, if you would have worked very hard at that in the last 15 or 20 years, and it's really paying off. How do you How do you feel? The county has handled the issue of green spaces and

00:23:08.870 - 00:23:26.020

such, and the state has remarked the county rather is remarkable for its parks and so on. Yeah, I'm very proud of what what the county has accomplished. And, you know, I think we probably could. They we put our record up against any other jurisdiction and particularly

00:23:26.020 - 00:23:50.300

the area of open space that's been absolutely phenomenal in terms, any of the areas that are preserved for future generations. That's quite true. Quite true. Do you do you foresee increasing sort of suburban? It's suburbanization of Sonoma County. I think I think it's an inevitable and

00:23:50.300 - 00:24:05.040

I don't know that you can. You can stop it all. You can do it, slow it down And it certainly there are some advantages to it. I mean, people like toe have their shopping centers and fine restaurants and activities of here in the county that they

00:24:05.040 - 00:24:25.900

don't have to travel outside. Right, right, Exactly. Um, curious. If do you If you were to recommend any sort of structural changes, if any, in any sort of larger way as faras how think business was transacted? County business. What would you have any suggestions of? Or

00:24:25.900 - 00:24:45.140

do you think that the current arranged when it's good? Well, the way that county government is organized in California is very unique. And I think if you were starting from scratch and you were gonna sort of create the laws by which local government operated, I don't

00:24:45.140 - 00:24:54.820

think you do it the way that it's that it's it's done in here. I mean, so I you know, I think I have to say that from the outset. I mean, I certainly a lot of things that I think could could be changed. But as a

00:24:54.820 - 00:25:14.210

practical matter, um, state laws is isn't going to permit that. I mean, there need to be more consolidations. I think School District's That's really a travesty in terms of how maney little district there are that on duplicate administration. And I think that probably holds true for

00:25:14.300 - 00:25:30.470

some of the smaller cities that are really not efficient. In my opinion, you think you could probably make an argument that the city of Santa Rosa in the county duplicate an awful lot and could be merged in some basis if if not entirely, but easier said

00:25:30.470 - 00:25:42.110

than done. And I think that the way that the county is approaching this, you know, sort of a step at a time is probably the right way. Under the current circumstances, one of the things that the county has done is trying to try to sort of

00:25:42.110 - 00:25:57.670

balance the need for elected the number of elected officials and those that are appointed that air more directly responsible to the Board of Supervisors. So there been consolidations, and now they're certain number. I think of elected officials and positions that are really important and others that

00:25:57.670 - 00:26:14.160

aren't aren't necessary. Just recently is my understanding. The counting consolidated the treasure tax collector, auditor controller I mean those air physical functions not necessarily political functions that I think it makes a sense. I mean, other activities like the sheriff and district attorney probably should continue to

00:26:14.160 - 00:26:28.710

be elected. One such consolidation be the assessor in the clerk and so on right now that that happened some years ago and I think that's worked out worked out very well. Yes, that's an amazing thing, it, But as you say it, it is logical in a

00:26:28.710 - 00:26:46.270

sense toe. Bring these things that share certain characteristics together. When, when you think of a sort of a city co terminus with a county, I think first and foremost of Miami Dade and also of San Francisco. Now you sort of hit upon potentially something along those

00:26:46.270 - 00:27:00.970

lines here with Santa Rosa. Well, yeah, I think so. And I don't know that you could consolidate right at the outset in the city, in the county, and I think it could be done under state law. You know, you'd have to have special legislation, but it

00:27:00.970 - 00:27:17.250

could be done. But I think they're probably Maurin Mawr operations that the city and county could run joint lamb. And you certainly could move towards, uh, having city and county facilities operated out of out of the same building and sharing staff. And and and the city

00:27:17.250 - 00:27:31.340

and county have worked at some of that there. You know, there's some of that taking place, but there's a lot more that could be done, and it's It's difficult because it does sort of touch on turf issues. Would you say the turf issues are accentuated in

00:27:31.340 - 00:27:47.010

a situation where the population is larger? I e. Santa Rosa as opposed toe Grenville or heels burgers? No, I think to me it's just the opposite on you when you get into a small town small environment. I think all the small cities would probably be the

00:27:47.010 - 00:28:08.010

most difficult to convince toe consolidate or to run joint operations from the county. When you get a large enough where the economy of scale, it's something that is pretty impressive then then I think people will listen. Interesting. Interesting. Okay, um, if you if you were to

00:28:08.010 - 00:28:26.390

say that what was the most enjoyable portion of your work is County administrator? Well, it was, I'm sure the people that I dealt with over the years there have been some really some excellent people, some people, that I was really that I was privileged to work

00:28:26.390 - 00:28:42.000

alongside of work, for work with that I think, accomplished a lot of things for the citizens. And it's really for me. It was a privilege to live in this area to raise your Children hairline. The wonderful schools. They haven't cinema, county and work in a place

00:28:42.000 - 00:28:58.690

like cinema County government. Just a privilege. Great wonder as we wrap up, if you first of all there, Is there anything you would like to mention subject matter that might be of us? Think so? I think you did it pretty well, people speak with political folks

00:28:58.690 - 00:29:14.130

of the issue of legacy. If you were to think of something that you are proudest off or would like to be most remembered for, what might be well, sometimes I don't know whether it's my albatross or my legacy, but getting the the jail facilities built on

00:29:14.130 - 00:29:27.420

getting the county out from under the jurisdiction of the federal court, that that was a big deal. But I think probably more I'd like to feel my legacy was in the area of the collaborative environment that we tried to create a the county and in particular

00:29:27.420 - 00:29:49.830

with our labor organizations. And I think we we sort of took that whole culture from the confrontational strikes that we went through Teoh much less ever serial relationship where, you know, I think that unions and the county government sit down together, Teoh jointly accomplishing things. And

00:29:49.830 - 00:30:05.050

I'm really proud of proud of that. You know, multiyear contracts, labor, peace with the with the unions. So again, the Khalidi ality raising the level of collegiate ality within local government. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you very much. Mike, we really, really appreciate this. You bet