00:00:21.410 - 00:00:46.270

start with, you know how you got into the law after college and the like and your connections with the Sonoma valley? Alright, well, first of all, I was born in Sonoma, as was my father before me and his father arrived at 14 from Lucca in 1875.

00:00:47.000 - 00:01:13.520

So when I went to santa rosa, J. C. Uh and I had a prophet by the name of George Bartlett who taught political science and economics. And he more or less gave me the idea uh of practicing law. And he said, I think you ought to

00:01:13.520 - 00:01:32.590

go down and meet those young demeo brothers. He said, you know, one of them is pretty good and he gets in front of the jury and he pounds his fist on the rail. And and he's pretty convincing. He says, I think you ought to look into

00:01:32.590 - 00:01:50.240

that, you might be pretty good at that. And then a few months before that, I talked with my father one morning in the kitchen and they asked me what I wanted to do and I said, well, I don't know, I I think I might want to

00:01:50.240 - 00:02:18.120

be a lawyer and he said, I don't know what else you'd be good for. And charlie and I graduated from high school in 1940 so this would have been in 1941 likely. And uh Dennis King, his brother was in J. C. When I was Dennis was

00:02:18.120 - 00:02:36.580

two years ahead of me and his brother just came and left because right, We're going we're going okay. So I think when we broke up, we were at the point where you have decided to go to law school and it was 40 or 41. And so

00:02:36.590 - 00:03:11.330

what happened? Well I graduated from 42 and um, but J. C. Had a High mark of about 1300 students in the fall of 1940. When I was a freshman and recruiting teams kept coming through J. C. Navy Air Force uh, airports and and uh santa rosa,

00:03:11.330 - 00:03:36.830

J. C. Had a pilot training class, the only J. C. Around the dead and a couple of airplanes out at the airport, which was then where industrial drive is now in that area. And So our classes started to diminish. And finally when I graduated, there was

00:03:36.830 - 00:04:02.210

only about 600 of us left by June of 42 and quite a number went to Canada and they went in with Canadian Air Force and very few of them came back. So I think santa rosa J. C. Had a pretty high mortality rate. And I flunked

00:04:02.210 - 00:04:20.500

the Navy Air Force physical three times during that period because I had a label blood pressure, which I didn't understand. And I passed it all and until I got to the blood pressure and they throw me out because I had about four or five points over

00:04:20.510 - 00:04:42.570

and it saved my life where I have been killed going off the carrier. Uh, now at this time, you know, you're on your way in the war's beginning life or did you have a decent knowledge of the law firms that were in existence at the time

00:04:42.570 - 00:05:07.450

throughout the county was just something I had uh no real direct knowledge of my father did. And uh he was a friend of Duke to castle for one. He thought he was a fine trial lawyer because he came down and try to drunk driving case in

00:05:07.710 - 00:05:38.960

uh which was one of my father's good friends who was, he then manager of P. J. And E and also with the hospital. And then he knew that charlie and nick and he knew roe barrett and but that was about it except for of course who

00:05:38.960 - 00:06:03.150

was a family attorney and friend now, did he eventually become a Justice court judge in Sonoma? Yes. And what year would that have been? I I won the election in June of 1950 and I passed the bar and won the election in the same week. So

00:06:03.150 - 00:06:26.930

you went to santa clara for I first of all I was admitted to Harvard on school while I was in the Navy and but geographically or accepted by states, there was a reason for that, I just learned. Uh and so I didn't apply right away and

00:06:26.930 - 00:06:49.870

I was still in the Navy. I was uh Lieutenant J. G. And I was down in San Diego. And uh Rather than pick prunes for the summer of 46. uh I stayed in the navy over for six months as us and temporary. And uh, uh, and

00:06:49.870 - 00:07:13.070

I was not accepted for the september class in Harvard uh, because I was from California. Uh, and so I wanted to go to school somewhere and I ended up as I was leaving the Navy, I drove into santa choir and I had a scholarship there from

00:07:13.070 - 00:07:31.910

my junior year and didn't take it because I went to the University of colorado and good old father john era, who was the president then said, what the hell happened to you two? Why didn't you take the scholarship? I didn't even know he knew. So he

00:07:31.910 - 00:07:54.020

said, you're in luck, You're number two in the next class. We had a class of 40 and filled up and uh, you're the second one in the second class of 40, we're going to do 80. And uh, and in that class where our santa rosa attorneys,

00:07:54.030 - 00:08:18.560

john klein and ed robert from Petaluma and Tommy arata. And so we were all in the same class. The second graduating class of law students from santa clara. Well, they were shut down during the war. However, uh, they had a class of maybe six or seven

00:08:18.570 - 00:08:41.110

students through the 30s, which uh, included, uh, I think it was john not Leroy, I think it was john because they went to USF and they went to santa Clare and I'm not quite sure who went to which one. Uh, and I think it was john,

00:08:41.110 - 00:09:19.230

that went to santa Clare and he was in the class of about 29 or so eventually became a city attorney in what john klein became the city attorney and uh uh all working for. Yeah, so in 1950 you're you're admitted to the bar and you, did

00:09:19.230 - 00:09:44.140

you actually run against judge Grinstead? Uh We had a long time Justice Court judge who was an attorney but didn't breakfast that had infantile paralysis. Um was in a wheelchair. The name was Lester Small. Lester Small. Yeah. And uh uh he was a bachelor and sort

00:09:44.140 - 00:10:06.940

of an invalid and uh he had an office in the back of the Poppy building which is Reagan instead father in law and Reagan instead was practicing in front and pompey was running the justice court and back. And Lester Small died in 1948 when I was

00:10:06.940 - 00:10:31.860

at the University of Denver Law School. And um so our then supervisor Jim little appointed his best friend Bill Downey, who was a painting contractor and real estate man as a Justice of the peace. Yes. And Bill Downey was a nice guy and very good friend

00:10:31.860 - 00:10:57.450

of my father and he painted our house and my grandparents house and he was a pretty successful real estate entrepreneur here. And uh so he made the fatal mistake of moving the justice court from Reagan instead Poppy building to his real estate office in Boyes Hot

00:10:57.450 - 00:11:19.780

Springs, so that anybody who promised to return the court to Sonoma would get re elected would get elected. So that's what I did. And I came in and I came out here and took the bar from the University of Denver and I took it in april

00:11:19.780 - 00:11:44.960

and and on Memorial Day weekend I got noticed that I passed the bar and on Tuesday following the next day the election was held and I won handily, I didn't know what what what to do. I didn't know how to practice law. I didn't know anything

00:11:44.960 - 00:12:01.850

about judging, but neither did judge down here. So, so when when you got elected, what you know, tell me what happened. So you find yourself now you're a lawyer for the first time elected into the position as Justice of the peace. Yes. However, I that was

00:12:01.850 - 00:12:20.520

in early june and I didn't take office til january. So I had six months to learn how to practice long to learn a little bit. So the first thing I did was go up and see Tommy Arata and say how the hell do you do this?

00:12:20.520 - 00:12:44.290

Because he'd been a few months uh in the practice with the brothers. And uh at that time Dennis keegan and joe Murphy were in the D. A. S office and I soon became acquainted with Dennis keegan. I saw that I got an immediate bill from the

00:12:44.300 - 00:13:13.000

county bar for $10 joining the County Bar Association. And so I I set up my office and my mother's home on broadway in Sonoma. Uh And I started to learn how to practice lawn, which it was interesting because I I I I only knew really Tommy

00:13:13.850 - 00:13:38.870

and then I knew Dennis and then uh hazel Hansen are inveterate probate clerk. Uh I got acquainted with her and she showed me how to do probate because I immediately got business and I didn't know what to do with. In the first week, I got two

00:13:38.870 - 00:14:07.530

divorces and a probate. And so yes, it was Ray Grinstead and Roland Krueger and Greenfield. And uh Ray was willing to be very helpful, but his wife and my singing teacher and I used to take my piano lessons at the Grinstead home on saturday morning from

00:14:07.540 - 00:14:32.030

another lady from Napa and their friend robert and I were best friends from the first grade, but mrs Grinstead. Mhm. Regarded me as a sort of an interloper interfering with her husband's business. And Ray himself was just most gracious and fine and help, but I didn't

00:14:32.030 - 00:14:52.580

think I'd better go there to get help. So I went to see Roland Kruger uh and Greenfield and they were both very helpful to me and we became flying friends and then I would go up and see Tommy when he was learning he was a few

00:14:52.580 - 00:15:16.780

months ahead of me. Yeah, well, he graduated from law school um ahead of me because I took off and went back to the University of Denver after my first year. So Tommy was a big help then uh, during this whole period of time there would be

00:15:16.780 - 00:15:34.970

only too superior courts, correct? Yeah. There was a judge Geary in department one drug contact and department too. Do you remember you remember when you first had to go to court, I assume before you took your, your office as justice of the peace? Oh yeah. I

00:15:34.980 - 00:15:59.960

went to a court to santa rosa of course. And I think the first case I did was the usual default divorce, you know. Yeah. And uh, oh yeah, there was no trouble and Gary was a bear, you know, on the default divorce. And at that time

00:15:59.970 - 00:16:19.690

you had to have a corroborating witness, which was difficult because most corroborating witnesses would say, well yeah, I knew that so and so was a bum or whatever. But you know when he was around me, they were always on their best behavior and so on and

00:16:19.700 - 00:16:56.240

judge Gary would lean over and say counsel, can you prove extreme cruel piece man. I would of course say yes, your honor. And he'd say proceed. And one day I was not too long after that I was, they're doing an uncontested divorce with judge fury. And

00:16:56.240 - 00:17:27.240

my lady corroborating witness wasn't doing very well and he leaned over to me and he says counsel, I am declaring a 10 minute recess and you go outside and coach your witness. Uh and then because I didn't know what to do when judge Gary handle the

00:17:27.840 - 00:17:49.340

criminal calendar and the justice court was essentially petty criminal stuff, drunk driving's and so on. I would go up to judge jury and ask him how to do things and he sort of took me under his wing as did judge comstock with the probate and I

00:17:49.340 - 00:18:26.660

learned a great deal from them and judge jury call me the delegate from the elephants graveyard. Even at that time. Cinema was so uh, the, was there a bar associated formal bar association? Oh yeah, oh yeah. Uh, when I joined the bar, Uh, in 1950 there

00:18:26.660 - 00:18:56.180

were uh, probably 45 or so members of the bar. And I remember in 1953 I counted up the members and at that time we had 50 members of the bar. So if the bar association has been in existence a long time way before me, 1953 there

00:18:56.180 - 00:19:16.060

were 50 members. Yes, we crossed over 50 in 1953 So that when I joined, there must have been maybe 45 or a few plus, you know, you couldn't get away with it today. But somebody provided us with a recommended fee schedule in 1951 that was generated

00:19:16.060 - 00:19:39.430

amongst the members of the bar. They would say this is what you should charge for an office conference. And one of the figures that I remember there was $5 when I started practicing an office conference was $5. That's right. And uh I was on a committee

00:19:39.430 - 00:20:11.300

that did the last one uh with Dennis keegan and Kenny James and Tommy brown I think. Um and that was the last fee schedule and I still have a copy of it down in the office and fever somewhat less. It was, it was in the sixties,

00:20:11.310 - 00:20:36.040

early sixties probably. And I remember our meeting was held in the room, there was a little room and off to the side and uh before adjourning to the bar, we handle our fee schedule and Tommy bronze comb was the key man on the probate fees and

00:20:36.040 - 00:21:06.170

so on and fees for extraordinary services. And I will at that time I think was $10 or $15. And of course it was under. I think the warren court that found that uh strongly suggested that these schedules were in restraint of trade, that when we had

00:21:07.970 - 00:21:24.840

some teeth in the antitrust loss which are long gone. So when you first started practicing law, you told us a little bit about Judge Geary and what it was like in his courtroom. Did you ever have occasion to go into judge courtroom? Oh, of course. What

00:21:24.840 - 00:22:05.040

was that like? Well, um dutch comstock uh was the uh true country Squire type. Some claimed he was a peacock, but john comstock uh which is a good student of the law and they let you know it. Uh and uh he had a habit of taking

00:22:05.040 - 00:22:26.040

over a case uh, which in my early years was wonderful because I didn't know how to do it and he would question the witnesses and especially if he, I felt that the case ought to go one way or another and that the lawyer wasn't doing a

00:22:26.050 - 00:22:49.360

job that was on the side that he liked, he would just take it over. And Leroy, one of us got so mad at him that he refused to appear in judge comstock court because Judge comstock would take the case away from Leroy. So did they have

00:22:49.360 - 00:23:14.800

the concept of the 1 70.6 in those days? No, no, no 1 70.6 came in somewhat later. You had to really uh disqualifying for cause and I don't know probably in the Late 50s perhaps about the time of discovery, which was 57 1st discovery law I

00:23:14.800 - 00:23:39.520

think 1 70.6 came in right about that time. And we were astonished that you simply had to make a bare allegation of prejudice and violet and that was it. And the judges took great umbrage at that. But in my eight years and the two bit Justice

00:23:39.520 - 00:24:05.390

court and then the Munich courts and marin and Solano county napa. Uh, I was never once disqualified. It just wasn't done now Babe. Great a man. And you had mentioned earlier, did he eventually become the first public defender. Yes. And when they established the office, he

00:24:05.390 - 00:24:30.400

was the first public defender. And then, well, I'll take that back. No, he wasn't. Uh, frank mcauliffe was the first public defender frank had come down from Quincy where he was the district attorney. And he made a mistake of that he held in material witness in

00:24:30.400 - 00:24:55.730

jail for a year on a murder case in the murder case was eventually dismissed. So he got sued in the county and the jury came in with a verdict something like 100 and $50,000. And that ended frank mcauliffe District Attorney in Plumas County, which had all

00:24:55.730 - 00:25:12.080

of 10,000 people at the time. And I was aware of it because I had a cabinet that looks like and Plumas County by this time. And so I didn't know frank, I knew of the case and the next thing I knew he was down here and

00:25:12.090 - 00:25:39.980

uh, uh, then when, But wainwright not a federal case that basically established the public defender's. Yeah, yeah. And uh, so frank McCormick came into santa rosa and he was out of a job, but he had a good background. And so he was appointed the first public

00:25:39.980 - 00:26:09.580

defender. And uh, in my cinema office, I have his desk that marty miller sold me after frank mcauliffe's death at a very reasonable price. Very fine desk. So did you ever get any appointments from the court on conflict cases with the public defender's Akers. Um, I

00:26:09.580 - 00:26:38.130

don't think so. And I, when I opened up to santa rosa office, I did have some conflict cases right early on. That was In the late 60s, early 70s. But there were a couple, they were usually nasty child molesting cases and so on. But that was

00:26:38.130 - 00:27:03.400

right at the beginning of conflicts because nobody considered that first. So do you remember the phasing out of the justice courts to the municipal court? Oh yeah. When did all that happen? Well, instead of rosa, uh, it was a justice court and I would sit up

00:27:03.410 - 00:27:36.460

there frequently and judge a man was a judge after judge full wider died. And uh with a core wild A suit in the Justice Court, which was over the $500 limit at the time. Uh And uh so they, the suit was basically to establish the municipal

00:27:36.460 - 00:28:01.280

court and that's how the municipal court was established actually by the litigation uh rather than by an appropriation and by By the legislature. They were forced to because we've proved that there was over 40,000 people, I think it was in the judicial district and therefore entitled

00:28:01.290 - 00:28:29.750

to municipal court. The lawsuit itself didn't amount to anything 1956. So it was about 1957. Um That the court was established. So before then you still had all the Justice Court. Yeah. When I started in 1950, there were seven justice courts in the county. And do

00:28:29.750 - 00:28:58.040

you recall any of the justices. Of course. Yes. Well in santa rosa we had Lucien full wider. My nephew was in my class built for wider than order to controller and federal J. C. Uh and and then in Greenville we had jesse Robertson who I think

00:28:58.040 - 00:29:26.900

ran a garage up there, He wasn't an attorney. And in Petaluma we had the inimitable ex undertaker Raleigh webb. Uh Then I knew from my brother in law have introduced them to me in 1946 while I was still in the navy and then and had Leroy

00:29:26.900 - 00:29:53.170

were and in Healdsburg you had john condit now the weather also whether also um police courts. Yes. Uh in santa rosa there was a police court and the judge Rutherford I think his name was. Um and he uh he held court and where the Topaz home

00:29:54.560 - 00:30:22.470

soon became uh and Henry had his office in that building to when he started. And I was even appointed police court judge in Sonoma when fred our police judge who was a retired highway patrolman uh decided he would retire again and he said, oh I don't

00:30:22.470 - 00:30:46.750

wanna do this anymore. And uh so Sonoma actually had Two judges in 1950 the police court. And uh but they had just really started that the city of Sonoma did it in was the first police court judge and they divide up what a police court would

00:30:46.750 - 00:31:15.000

hear as opposed to the Justice Court. Well the the the city police courts only handed handle violations of city ordinances or commission of other crimes within the city. And uh technically the city attorney was supposed to prosecute them, but they didn't, the district attorney did in

00:31:15.000 - 00:31:43.150

some cities like Long Beach. Even today, the city attorney prosecutors all misdemeanors very busy office and that maybe 15 or 20 lawyers in it and they take that city court very seriously uh city prosecution, they're all in the in the now Superior Court. But at the

00:31:43.150 - 00:32:07.460

time, so if the two deputy D. A. S. For Dennis keegan and joe Murphy with a from time to time come down to Sonoma to do things. Oh yes, yes. Well, uh at that time, um when I first started practicing uh the deputy D. A. S.

00:32:08.760 - 00:32:35.500

Where Dennis keegan joe Murphy, Tommy, arata. Uh and uh because Tommy was having him, Ophelia, you know, something terrible and he couldn't handle it too well. And he went out into private practice with, with joe Murphy, they uh started in right around the corner behind Gary

00:32:35.500 - 00:33:07.910

choose. Uh So and then the Civil Department was Art Talmon. Uh and joe maddox. And Charlie McGoldrick was the district attorney and Joe Maddox was the assistant that handled the civil department. So yeah, that was right and uh a couple of years later. Well, first in

00:33:07.910 - 00:33:35.220

1950, Charlie McGoldrick ran against LG is caught for district attorney. And charlie Mcgoldrick beat Hitchcock and became the district attorney. Uh And I think charlie was in in 1950 I think he must have been appointed before that was stolen. McGettigan whom I didn't know and he

00:33:35.220 - 00:33:50.970

was D. A. When I was going to J. C. On in there, you know, Tolins son is a lawyer in san Francisco that went to high school with. Right. And he told me he has a bunch of literature about his dad, which he'd love to share

00:33:50.970 - 00:34:18.510

with. Yeah, well he was, he was very well regarded uh and something happened to him during the war or shortly thereafter because was in the D. A's office during the war. And Phil maddox told me that great event that happened during the war was that there

00:34:18.510 - 00:34:43.770

was a rumor that a submarine had come into the Russian river, japanese submarine and they went out there to attack it. And charlie Mcgoldrick was in the Coast Guard, but it was a spurious rumor. So did you eventually end up, obviously you probably remember your first

00:34:43.780 - 00:35:17.780

jury trial? Yeah, Judge Geary uh court. And uh that was in about, It was in 1951 and um joe Murphy was the prosecutor and I was defending a man who was the alleged chief of police of these Sonoma state hospital. And he lived in ken wood

00:35:17.780 - 00:35:52.660

and was accused um shooting a firearm at home. Halloween prankster on Halloween might and he shot through the back of his little coupe, 36 Ford Coupe and the bullet went through boom. And they choose him of uh, because he was chasing him because the kid was

00:35:52.670 - 00:36:15.020

throwing tomatoes or something or other. And uh, so they charged him with a felony and he came down and I could practice long, you know, privately. And I defended him and I got into the case and I thought, oh I better get some help here and

00:36:15.020 - 00:36:46.320

the jury. So I got L. G his cock. And he and I defended the case and Judge Gary thought we had a winner, but we lost the jury convicted him and Judge Gary, I was uh, went in afterwards and he said, uh, chambers and he said

00:36:47.280 - 00:37:08.020

make a motion for a new trial. He said this is ridiculous. So we went outside and I didn't know any different. So I made my motion for a new trial right then. And he said that true premature council, you will do it in due course. And

00:37:08.020 - 00:37:31.800

I think that urine dismissed him and joe Murphy just sat there quietly, You know, So that was my first trial then. Uh, as I understand the history of litigation, uh, basically was sort of trial by ambush in those days where there was little or no discovery.

00:37:31.810 - 00:37:55.320

Is that true? Yes. Uh, in a criminal case, there was, there were no discovery of any kind period. It was total trial by ambush and in civil cases is all you did was take depositions and go to trial. And that's how I learned to do it

00:37:55.320 - 00:38:25.400

and I sort of liked it that way. I certainly don't care for this current discovery, which fine thing for cute little girls freshly out of law school to make motions and demand sanctions and so forth. So in terms of going back to your time and on

00:38:25.400 - 00:38:45.630

the justice court. So how would how would cases heard? First of all they be assigned to your court? How many cases would you hear? How often did you sit? Well I only worked at it about in court about two days a week. So as soon as

00:38:45.630 - 00:39:07.760

I had five years then I got hauled out by the judicial council all over into the Munich court basically in marin and then um And I didn't want to go to San Francisco because you had to go 30 days at a time. And because I could

00:39:07.760 - 00:39:33.680

practice law at the same time, it was a rather hybrid situation and I couldn't, couldn't uh have really web over all the time because that's got to be a problem in itself. So, so when the municipal courts established. Yeah. Do you recall how, who are the

00:39:33.680 - 00:39:56.840

judges and how that worked here here? Oh yeah. Uh the first municipal court had of course was, and that was man who was the justice court judge who had been appointed by the supervisors upon the death of judge, Full writer. Uh who was killed in an

00:39:56.840 - 00:40:22.120

auto accident in marin county at the age of 83 I think he was. And so um then uh Al Scheidegger had become the judge uh in some master pool in the anally district. And uh oh I forgot to mention him earlier. Uh There was a Floyd

00:40:22.120 - 00:40:55.710

Darby was the uh Justice court judge in 1950 then uh Floyd Darby I think passed on and And all side decker was appointed about 57 maybe. And so uh pretty soon al er because it was so close by, was sitting in with man at the time

00:40:55.720 - 00:41:29.030

and um then they consolidated the district and they made him a municipal court judge. Uh So that's how that came about. And then later on um the Sonoma and Petaluma were combined, but that didn't happen until uh McMahon was the judge, 19 68, 60. Ray Winstead

00:41:29.030 - 00:41:58.250

died in 66. He was bucked off the horse and he fractured his skull from the pavement. Um Ray liked to ride and he had a horse always did. And so uh and then and then Healdsburg and frank, uh he succeeded Judge Condit uh who retired or

00:41:58.250 - 00:42:26.030

died in office. I'm not quite sure he wasn't in good health and frank was appointed and it wasn't long before uh Healdsburg and Cloverdale were consolidated into Santa Rosa and then were together until they were all consolidated when judge was appointed, wasn't he one of the

00:42:26.030 - 00:42:53.640

youngest uh appointees to the bench in the state. Yeah, for a while in 1950, I was the youngest in the state Because I was 27 when I won the election And was right about 27 or eight along in there. Because that was about 1965. About, I

00:42:53.640 - 00:43:33.190

think Frank came in about 60 for and um yeah, I think you read about them and so And they were were, he was in office when I came aboard in 1950, they were a little no judge. Both judges court like small did in their office. Yeah.

00:43:34.100 - 00:43:57.560

Judge down here in his real estate office here. That was his courtroom. Yeah. So as the county became more populous in the number of municipal judges and superior Court judges grew uh, did, did santa rosa eventually become uh sort of a center of activity for northern

00:43:57.560 - 00:44:29.100

California as opposed to marin and napa from a financial standpoint? Well, eventually, yes, because I recall judge comstock telling me that in the state structure of the courts, um that county in Monterey County had about equal population and about the equal number of judges. And of

00:44:29.100 - 00:44:54.240

course, the judges were always trying to get more judges and there was a constant battle with the legislators of getting appropriations and so on, which still is today. And even getting chairs for the courtroom very difficult. And there's a provision in the civil code, I think

00:44:54.240 - 00:45:21.140

that is that allows the judge to order uh, adequate com accommodations are just still there. Judge Mcgoldrick and invoked it once. And yeah, and I threatened to, uh and uh, charlie was a little prickly about that. He didn't care for what supervisors were doing to him.

00:45:21.150 - 00:45:55.020

Uh So, uh, let me funny, got, got a few things. Um, so, um, Sonoma County grew much faster than the surrounding counties and that's why it became a commercial, huh, so to speak. Uh And because the city of santa rosa especially grew so fast that the

00:45:55.030 - 00:46:21.730

courts group and outstripped Monterey County and certainly marin County that used to be bigger than Sonoma County when I was a kid. Uh and we were bigger than Solano County, Which was sort of strange because the central population was invalid on the county seat was up

00:46:21.730 - 00:46:43.140

in Fairfield that had about 4000 people at the time. Now it's approaching 200,000. It's over 150,000. And growing going back to the superior courts that the two superior courts, you got a chance ever to socialize or I should say, did you ever have a chance to

00:46:43.140 - 00:47:11.440

socialize with the judges? How was that? Well, the first problem in the smaller population area is that the judges were like fish in a goldfish bowl, that you didn't dare go out and you kind of have to socialize more among yourselves. Uh, some of which consisted

00:47:11.440 - 00:47:42.670

of duck hunting. Uh And uh, you, you just couldn't go out and like you dare went out and had a drink in the bar with your secretary. It was all over town and my wife who has great disdain for such things uh would get very angry

00:47:42.670 - 00:48:01.670

at me because I wouldn't go out around here in the valley, santa rosa was better. And she'd say, well why can't we go out to dinner and have a drink? And I'd say because I get him and I did and it was very unpleasant and that's

00:48:01.670 - 00:48:29.640

one of the reasons I didn't want to do it. And I think Judge I'm on um was the first person really that socialized outside except for Judge Gary who was roundly criticized because every day for lunch at the topaz room, he and his bailiff would go

00:48:29.640 - 00:49:01.810

in there and he would have one straight up martini was he? Yes. And George comstock one day said to me, you know, I don't know why don don does that. But uh but like Judge comstock of course was another generation. And uh he would do with

00:49:01.810 - 00:49:32.830

socializing with fred Rosenberg and others of another generation. And uh he didn't get along well with tomatoes, one. Uh and he uh um he didn't socialize that much except our bar association activities. He always went uh to the bar association activities and our picnic every year

00:49:32.840 - 00:50:00.430

especially and Gary didn't um, but they were both quite social people, but like like man who is more of my generation, somewhat older and less manker of course, and Kenny Hyman, that was different. And we did get out a little more, but not much to pass

00:50:00.430 - 00:50:26.840

room was about it. So was it more often than not that some of the bar skits, they would spoof the judges? Oh yes, Always, always was. That was always the basic format. And and there were some pretty good skips and uh Ray Grinstead got me in

00:50:26.850 - 00:50:48.350

early on as a player. Uh, Ray would write them and Ray was pretty musical and had a good bass voice. He used to sing in the catholic choir and my mother played the organ along with Sylvia, Sebastian E and he had a bass voice and a

00:50:48.350 - 00:51:15.000

good voice. And uh, so Ray instead uh my first skit I was in was in 1951, do you remember the, yeah, that was up in Healdsburg and we did a skit rigorous that wrote it, it was always singing, you know? And uh we got and then

00:51:15.010 - 00:51:48.970

uh it eventually ended up that uh, knew his cock was writing skits and then joe maddox helped and then I began to help and I did several of them in the 60s 70s. And uh, joe maddox was very good at uh putting words, uh music. Uh

00:51:48.980 - 00:52:14.000

they were, they were fun and nick demeo would play his banjo and uh, Jack would play the piano and none of us were very good, but joe Murphy and alma genie had fine voices. They would carry the rest of us. These are, that was bar picnics

00:52:14.000 - 00:52:34.420

once a year. Yeah. Every june and it was quite a party. I wouldn't get home til three or four in the morning usually. Um as did everybody else uh tom tom you're just a little late when they were kind of calming down by the time you

00:52:34.420 - 00:52:55.170

came. But they were events. I mean and we would, they would start in and play golf in the afternoon and go swimming whatever it happened to be. And then we'd have a kind of a barbecue type dinner served and then we'd have the skit and then

00:52:55.170 - 00:53:21.350

we then they have a nice game going on the floor and there would be 10 or 12 guys scattered around and flex seal was a very good crap shooter as well as Dave Vo and Bill lost burrow and others and I was never that good. But

00:53:21.350 - 00:53:45.820

they were very intent. And those crap shooting games would go on for hours. That was about the time I would leave and try to get home. Uh let me ask you this, you, what are your feelings when the Supreme Court finally ruled about allowing lawyers to

00:53:45.820 - 00:54:16.420

advertise? Yeah. Your feelings about what that did to the profession. Well perhaps I'm old fashioned, but I think it cheapens the profession. Uh and I, two people over the years that if you don't, if you want to make sure um and not picked him the wrong

00:54:16.420 - 00:54:40.660

lawyer just looked in the phone book and don't get any of them that advertise and have pictures because I think they are by and large. Uh not of the quality of those who don't and I for one have never advertised at all. You know the other

00:54:40.660 - 00:55:00.420

day I saw a picture of Maurice fredericks in the in a airplane. Yeah. See that he was a 21 year old pilot. He probably was, well he and I went to Boy Scout camp together up on the river because Sonoma was in with Petaluma and I

00:55:00.420 - 00:55:22.720

met him in Boy Scout camp. He and his brothers and who also went to santa clara. He didn't, he he went to USF I think one school nickname was. Yeah. Yeah. Well the reason why I ask is that I know there was another character, the practice

00:55:22.720 - 00:55:44.230

law that was a much celebrated pilot in World War Two tim Crowley. Oh yeah he was a bomber pilot And I have some pictures here. Uh He kept up with it. Uh He had a squadron and my cousin who lived in you kaya. Also they had

00:55:44.230 - 00:56:05.730

a squadron. They were bomber pilots. And uh Jim Crowley was in in England for a long time and he kept up, he was kind of the go to man that kind of held the squadron together and tim and I talked about it a lot and we

00:56:05.730 - 00:56:27.760

were quite good friends and you can always be sure he would have a different point of view. In fact, that's my next one. Was the other colorful character from the Valley Jack Coffee. Oh yes, he was wonderful. We were, we were very good friends. We started

00:56:27.760 - 00:56:46.670

off in a kind of prickly relationship because when I first met him, he came into my office and asked for a job And I looked at him and I couldn't believe he was a lawyer. And you know, he's about 62 and big and fat and weighed

00:56:46.670 - 00:57:14.140

about close to £300 And he had a piece of white clothesline wrapped around for a belt and his pants were up, his calves were showing and he had army or marine boots on with white socks and he was half popped and he came into town uh,

00:57:14.150 - 00:57:41.730

and deposited in himself and the Eldorado Hotel at the time, which was uh, for kind of a watering place for those who stayed a long time after lunch. And uh, and I was just a court judge. And, and my quirk louise let moroni. Uh, she looked

00:57:41.730 - 00:58:11.220

at Jack Coffey and she was a very straight laced irish girl come back from new york state. And uh, she said that the lawyer and uh, uh, so yeah, but despite his appearance, he was an incredibly articulate. He was very nimble and quick on his feet

00:58:11.230 - 00:58:33.600

thinking he would never do any legal research. In fact, he would call me. And and he had his office in Boy Springs and he'd say, can you drop off the super code on the way home and Denny's will have a drink. Uh I was his library

00:58:33.600 - 00:59:05.200

for years. Uh, and but Jack had a wit and a charm about him and was awfully quick on repartee and he had favorite expressions. And my old associate, norman challenge would get so mad at Jack. And they did. The guy turned their divorces over Norman when

00:59:05.200 - 00:59:27.150

he came in 1960 and Jack would always represent the man rather than the woman and norm. The women really like norman. They would come in and he was handsome and nice and norm was a sweetheart of a guy and warm hearted and he called it Jack

00:59:27.150 - 00:59:53.820

and he'd say, well, you know, I have told so and You have two kids and they're hungry. Jack would say, my man doesn't have a biscuit was his favorite expression broke, broke. He said he can barely eat himself, you know? And norm would get so angry.

00:59:53.830 - 01:00:27.700

And Jack was a real competitor uh associated with, Yeah, he was with me for five years, 60 to 65. And then he, yeah, then he went uh, Duke to castle hired him as an assistant public defender just before Duke fail. And marty came in. No, no,

01:00:27.700 - 01:00:52.050

the other way around marty came first and then norm went up there I think and norm just couldn't stand the rigors especially of the domestic trade. I mean it was just emotionally hard on him. Uh He he liked the public defenders work better because he just

01:00:52.050 - 01:01:19.500

said he just keep going by. Do you remember when after we had the two Superior Court judges and then of course they started growing in numbers. Yeah, I remember what that period of time. Yes, I'll try. Department three was created in 1951 and was appointed by

01:01:19.510 - 01:01:57.860

Earl Warren As 1st Judge of Department three. Um And uh then department for was Not brought in until about 19 66 or seven. Um Now Mca was in department three. Um Doug Murphy I think was the first one in Department four and it was formed right

01:01:57.860 - 01:02:44.740

about Pat Brown, you know, lost. Uh Uh and he appointed Judge Murphy before he was defeated by Reagan and that was about 1966. And so then Department five came along in the about 19 About 1975 or six. And yeah, was the first judge. And uh So

01:02:44.740 - 01:03:14.200

in those days with, let's say the five departments. Uh The master calendar was typically called one day a week. All the the master calendar started in 1960 two when Leroy who was the head of the judiciary committee of the bar decided that the reign of judge

01:03:14.200 - 01:03:44.660

comstock was going to come to an end Because Judge Comstock had been the presiding judge for about 30 years. Mhm And uh uh and Link man uh I was upset, he was and the cramp charlie Mcgoldrick wanted to be the criminal judge. And so when link

01:03:44.660 - 01:04:08.990

was appointed uh to the superior bench, uh you've kind of I felt out of but he thought it ought to be rotated. But because Judge comstock would bait charlie Mcgoldrick with the criminal calendar uh when they voted for presiding judge Mcgoldrick voted with Tom Stock and

01:04:09.000 - 01:04:33.000

and left the maker out man out year after year. And so finally we were one of us and Link man, We're good friends and I don't know that, like had anything to do with this. But I know I got put on the uh committee and Leroy

01:04:33.010 - 01:05:02.430

did that. Uh And the whole object of this committee was to start the master calendar system because Judge comstock was the presiding judge and he ran the non uh calendar system where uh each judge uh would basically run his own calendar. And uh and liberally developed

01:05:02.430 - 01:05:28.050

some statistics for the Clerk's office that showed that the court courtrooms were only in use around 76 77 days a year. And that our calendar was about 2.5 years behind on a good day. So we take you that long to get to try. Yeah. Yeah. So

01:05:28.060 - 01:05:59.820

and uh Judge comstock is the ultimate Squire uh didn't believe uh and well he didn't believe in a fast running calendar, put it that way. Uh so he and Leroy by this time Leroy wouldn't practice in his court and there was an animosity and Comstock felt

01:05:59.830 - 01:06:25.990

that Leroy was out to get him which was true, come back. So uh um so and like man wanted to do the criminal calendar and uh so there were, the object was to get Judge Mcgoldrick to become the presiding judge, which comstock didn't approve of. But

01:06:25.990 - 01:06:50.350

then when we went on the master calendar system that rotated and it's been rotating ever since then we had a couple of heated sessions, they're in department one just using it as a meeting place. And uh we had kind of sides that there were the defenders

01:06:50.350 - 01:07:14.340

of judge comstock and and the system the way it was, which included Dennis keegan and um ken Highland who was just a D. A. At the time. Bill Gary shared a story about his, apparently for years Comstock had stock in PG and E so he would

01:07:14.340 - 01:07:30.670

disqualify himself that they would get kicked over to Gary and they to Judge Gary and they were always difficult cases. So he said his dad funding went out and bought 1000 shares of stock so that he wouldn't be assigned to either, that they had to bring

01:07:30.670 - 01:07:57.350

a judge from out of the county, you know, But uh it was kind of a cute story, you know, Judge calms down was very clever and the uh well he was imperious and uh so uh and he ran the court that was his court and his

01:07:57.360 - 01:08:20.820

court house and he was only about six months or so senior to judge Geary, but he never let him forget it. And one day I was in talking to judge comstock because he liked me and he says, I don't know why don doesn't speak to me.

01:08:23.650 - 01:08:41.400

Mhm. Well, he well, you know, the other thing I was curious about because we were all part of it in one way or the other. There was a period of time in the mid and early seventies, mid seventies, more than anything else, where there was a

01:08:41.400 - 01:09:10.770

strong law and order philosophy of the bench and all of a sudden there were all these judicial elections very heavily contested, where a lot of deputy retired but ended up with the judicial do. In fact, one of one of my appointed cases until we used to

01:09:10.770 - 01:09:44.540

get appointed and Lincoln man was the judge and department one and I had some hopeless guilty person and I made the usual pitch and judge man says that is probably the best argument I've ever heard from a member of the Alternate society. Late man was a

01:09:44.550 - 01:10:13.170

sort of the law and order type judge and uh the D. A's office I thought was often certainly under dramatics and island and johnny hawk and James, honey was pretty evenhanded, I don't think they were uh prosecutorial as as such. Uh, but there certainly there was

01:10:13.170 - 01:10:37.700

a reaction against the Laissez faire from 1967 and the dope trade. And as John Hawkes said, the way that developed when it went out of the Haight Ashbury in 68 and 69 and went up to Marin County along the coast and, you know, went out to

01:10:38.230 - 01:11:03.230

beach and Dylan's Beach got into Sonoma County over that way and then into the Russian River. And it missed over this side of the county. And it got to be a real problem. And uh, then we had, I think a period where there was, well, I

01:11:03.240 - 01:11:28.680

think it was a culture and generational class clash that was at the basis of it. And then judges were accused of turning everybody loose, which wasn't so, but the, the usual disposition that had gone on over the years weren't adequate to handle the dope trade. And

01:11:28.690 - 01:11:55.260

also the, uh, the robberies, that was the beginning of the TVs and the stereos and between dope and little burglaries and so on. Uh, there was a lot of crime and people were afraid and there started with the mp Charles, warren signs that we're in southern

01:11:55.260 - 01:12:28.960

California, that that element moved up and I got very prosecutorial and I know judge man went along with it, um, because he was the kind of a prosecutor heart and uh, so, uh, um, there was that period definitely. Well, especially with governor that he never saw

01:12:28.970 - 01:12:49.930

prosecutor, he didn't like, you know. Well, Newt, you're obviously a wonderful source of information about our county and the history of the bench in the bar. What advice? You know, you're proud of your profession. What advice would you have for 35 or 40 year old lawyer

01:12:49.930 - 01:13:19.900

or somebody just out of law school as far as what this profession uh, means in our society? Well, I think it is still an honorable profession. I think like any other profession that can be improved. I think the great societal problem that we have is basically

01:13:19.900 - 01:13:50.690

the result of the number of people and the lack of knowing people personally. There is a great impersonal nous about it. And I think that has also in creeped into the profession. Uh, the humanities side is diminished and it's probably a product of the times and

01:13:51.290 - 01:14:22.990

uh, the alienation of people and people, uh, being glued to their tv sets and not socializing. Uh, and I think lawyers have always been, huh, a medium of contact between people and, and well, because they're better educated, they explain life living to people. And this is

01:14:22.990 - 01:14:47.930

part of it. And the legal profession is bound up with human activities of various kinds. And I think it's more difficult to be a good lawyer today. I think that's hard and therefore it's, I think both more difficult to communicate with people and I think it's

01:14:47.930 - 01:15:13.740

more difficult for judges to get the feel of people that they're by nature, the way things are more remote. And we had a much more personal time, both among the bar, among the judiciary, uh, and among the people. And before that, if you listen to Judge

01:15:13.740 - 01:15:41.710

comstock, tell how it was when he started in. Uh, and my grandfather was one of his first clients. He told me Carl came to him To form the Sonoma ice and brewing company in 1913 as his first corporation that he did. It was just steam beer

01:15:41.710 - 01:16:08.200

brewery. Yeah, so that's why he had a soft spot for me that my grandfather was his first corporate clients as he stated, thank you very much for taking out the time to meet with Judge Natalie and me and couldn't ask for a more beautiful setting here,

01:16:08.210 - 01:16:16.630

sitting in your office looking out of the valley. It's just great, thank you. Thank you very much.