Interview of Leroy Lounibos, March 2012

alright. So we're here with, it's March 19th 2012. And uh here with tom Kenny and why don't you start if you wouldn't mind just give us a sense of being a boy in Petaluma. Uh having your familiarity with the legal system. Oh growing up in Petaluma,

it was really a different town when I grew up. Um I grew up about two blocks from here on B street and uh Population of UNDER 10,000. Very little traffic. We walked everywhere as kids. We walked to school, walked home from school, walked to the parks

as we got a little older, we got bikes, we rode bikes everywhere. It was just a good uh small town experience for me. Yeah and you remember of course, tell us a little bit about the family. Well I come from a family of nine kids. Um

I'm the second oldest. Um My mother grew up in Fresno. She's a Kennedy and my father grew up here in Petaluma. My father, as you know it was a lawyer and his brother john luna bus was also a lawyer that's practiced law together. Where is their

office? Their office initially was where the bank of America building is now on Washington. And um Petaluma boulevard, that was a collection of offices and it was two stories high, you had to walk up these steep stairs to get to their office and it looked like

an old fashioned movie set. Yes. Ah and what kind of practice did it? It was a general practice. My father was primarily a trial lawyer. My uncle john was handled contracts, wills and states and uh, they accumulated quite a few um, local people as clients. Uh,

they seem to have a lot of the ranchers around here. And uh, it was, it was a very large, prosperous practice for a small town. Did you have occasion to go to your office? Oh yeah. The reason I did is whenever I needed a haircut, the

barber shop was downstairs from the office parks named after much uh, and I would get my hair cut and then go up the stairs and visit my father and uncle. The staff in those early days. Do you have any recollection of whether there were other firms

in town that would have had the same longevity as your uncle and your dad? Well, there were other firms in town, but I sensed that my father and uncle sort of monopolized uh, the town it was so it'd be sort of like the past, a local

family in hills berg. But the lupus boys uh seem to have everybody. And growing up, everybody knew my father and my uncle. And as I started practicing law, they, I got a lot of the old clients that we're familiar with my father and uncle. When did

your family, your father was born? Okay, so your roots go back to, Well, my French ancestors, I'm primarily French. The lunatics ancestors migrated from southern France. The Pyrenees near the little above the city of Lords. They migrated to San Francisco in 1873. The family legend is

that my uh grandfather uh was conceived in France and born in san Francisco bay. They ended up uh working in the vineyards in the valley of the moon and uh the, the frugal and eventually built a winery that's still there on the drone road. Uh and

um I have photographs of the family, my grandfather and great grandfather and the workers of all standing in front of that vineyard. I could go drive over there and see the same tree and everything. Um, so they started making wine and so half the family remained

in the valley making the wine. And the other half of the family moved to san Francisco and they had a retail outlet on the Farrell Street. And uh my grandfather uh married Agnes Norton and they, according to my cousin joe tinny, I asked him joe's father,

the former supervisors san Francisco asked him where did my grandparents lived? He says, I know exactly where they lived. They lived across the street from the oldest building in san Francisco. And what is that joe, that's the Mission Dolores. So they, that, that was my part

of the family was in san Francisco and they were there and uh right before the earthquake, they sold the store and then the earthquake happened and uh they wanted to get out of san Francisco and they moved to Petaluma because it was unaffected by the earthquake

at least that's the story I was told and continued in wine oriented businesses until prohibition. And then my grandfather. Yeah yeah my grandfather then um became a chicken hatchery owner. And uh their their home was on Upham ST it's still there and it went all the

way to baker street in the back and the back was this Britain building that was there Until about 20 years ago I. X. L. hatchery. And they ran that business for a while. So when did your father start the law practice? Well John Luna because the

older uh he started that I think around 1927 1930 and one of his partners was uh charlie Mcgoldrick who later became the D. A. And then a judge. And then my father got out of law school in the mid thirties I think mid to late thirties

and came back and uh they formed the partnership of lupus and lupus. And when did you become a I um I graduated from law school in 1965, took the bar and in January of 66 I started practicing in my father's firm. Right so when you started

practicing the firm with the lawyers in the firm. Well as my father and uncle my cousin guide and Jack King john King jr yeah and uh the five of us practiced together then uh Jack decided to move on. And my cousin joe Tinney came in. So

it was five lawyers for that period of time. Yeah. So do you what are your first memories of? Well of course there was a justice court. Yes there was remember that. Oh absolutely. First memories. Well my first memories I wasn't a lawyer. I was uh high

school I think they had a government day where high school kids would go and sit in on various government departments. And since my father was a lawyer I was sitting in the city attorney's office. They had a city attorney's office there in old city hall down

on fourth street. And during the day they took me down into the basement where the justice of peace was operating. And I got to watch uh the legendary Raleigh webb rolling C. Webb preside over the justice court. He wasn't a lawyer but he was just a

piece. In fact he was I think before he became just a piece I think it was a mortician. Um And so I uh I found it quite amusing after I became a lawyer. The first trial I had was in that court before judge web and it

was a drunk driving case. The The person I was representing was driving the wrong way. I wanted one with about a .22 blood alcohol and is kind of an open and shut case. But I wanted the experience. And so it got set for trial in front

of judge webb and the D a the deputy D. A from santa rosa called me up and said listen we have a toxicologist who's gonna give his opinion as to the blood alcohol. And I was wondering if you just stipulate to his opinion And I said

no I need some experience and I've never cross examined anybody in my life. So I wanted to do it. And so the deputy was a little upset with that but even he brought the expert in and um I vigorously cross examined him for about an hour

or so and that was it. But at the end of the case, Judge Webb said this is a very troublesome case. I am not too sure I'm gonna take it on a submission. So I walked back to my office and the phone was ringing and it

was judge Webb and he says I this is a troublesome case. What do you think judge? I think he's innocent. So do I extra party communication. So I won my 1st 1st case. Um and that's the easiest case. So the statute of limitations has run on.

So when you mentioned the city attorney first go around when you were having some exposure to the court system down here was you know before I think before, I can't remember who it was but it was before. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So did you did you

go into court many times? Oh yeah uh Judge web about a year or two after that was eased out. I was on the municipal court committee that uh formulated the idea that we would uh move the municipal court into the south and also into the north.

So the justice of peace in those in the southern part of the county uh would be eliminated unless that justice was a lawyer. And the economic lawyer was just the piece was Alle McMahon. So he became a municipal court judge and his it's primarily held cases

in Sonoma and Petaluma which was a lot of fun. And up north frank was just the piece. So he became the municipal municipal court judge. But as a part of that committee on that, yeah, can't remember. That's too far. So when they went from the justice

court system to the municipal court system, I'm not too sure how we were, it might have been supervisors did it? I know uh Raleigh webb was quite upset with that and we had to accommodate him. We made him the clerk of the court which uh was

troublesome because some cases would end up in his office drawer because they weren't going to be heard as far as he was concerned. And um there was a lot of cases that just kind of files that just disappeared. You know that you know, I remember I

was deputy D. A. The year after his transition and the citations, traffic citations were kept in cigar boxes. So if it was the driving on a suspended license, it was a white owl and if it was drug traffic, this is something they didn't teach. You know,

you didn't learn much of law school. So other than the local justice court, what are the courts to just start practicing? Oh the superior court in municipal court. We had, they were divided then. And the judges, when I, when I first started the first week that

I came up here from san Francisco uh it was law and motion day and my father brought me up to santa rosa and introduced me to some of the judges and they were still in the old courthouse where courthouse square is now. And I remember him

picking me and he wanted me to meet this one judge. And uh he took me into the spacious chambers, big windows you could see out and the judge was standing there with his back to us looking out the window, looked very troubled and worried and he

started talking to us, this is Lincoln mayhem. And uh people are unhappy with him and he was going like that. I felt very sorry for him and it just was, it was the first time I'd ever met him. I grew up hearing stories about a lot

of the judges uh that preceded uh the judges I started with and my father's favorite judge was Donald Geary Bill's father and I used to hear hilarious stories about Donald gary things like he'd be up in his chambers, the same chambers where man took over and

he had, he'd opened the window and he dropped water bombs on people and stuff like that stuff that kids would really like, you know? And um there were two judges um that I heard a lot about and they were, I guess they were the only only

Superior Court judge at the time. That would be Hilliard comstock and uh Judge Gary, my father and Judge Gary were best friends. They loved each other. Uh My father could not stand judge Comstock and he'd come home furious at times about how Judge Comstock would interrupt

cross examination or examination, start asking his own questions. And my father who was known to have a quick temper uh would get get into it with him. To the point where my father decided to have printed up a blanket disqualification and he would never accept judge

comstock. And so is always Judge Gary. No comstock was not judge when I appeared before him a few times on law, emotion matters as you know, as a retired judge, but never really got a sense of it all, except from my father's unbiased. The judge is

the Superior Court Judges that we had when I started would have been a judge man. Um Judge Manker. Judge Mcgoldrick. Judge Murphy was still in the municipal court when I started and Judge Mcgoldrick retired and Judge Diamond field in there. Judge Murphy was then elevated to

department for. So we then had four judges and those were the judges that I cut my teeth on. So do you have any memories about specific programs operated what the personalities were like and or anything like that? Well I had learned in law school clerking for

a law firm in the city. Uh, I received a very valuable advice from one of the, your best friends in the courtroom of the clerks in the personnel treat them with dignity and respect. They're the ones that will get you through all of this. And it's

true. Uh, Judge bankers, uh, clerk with deal sites and deal and I would talk during the recess about something and he said, don't remember to do this or don't remember to do that or some of my early criminal defense is my first criminal case that I

argued with juries. Don't forget to talk about, uh, you know this and don't forget to talk about that. And uh, it was true. That was great advice I thought and it, it served me well throughout my entire career, wherever I tried cases all over California and

wherever I would go. Uh 1st 1st day I go into the courtroom, it was empty and get a feel for the courtroom. I'd sit in the jury box, I'd sit in the witness stand, I'd sit in all the seats to get a feel for this. And

a clerk had come into a reporter and we'd talk and that was so valuable, you know, so with respect to the judges here in the county obviously you spend your time with the clerks, which I think is very sound advice for anybody. Um Did you find

the judges first of all to be fair or any known to be fair or or have personality traits different from another? Well in the beginning, uh judge man was just terrific. I just loved appearing in his court and it was lighthearted. There's a lot of humor

in it and we took care of serious business. We dealt with things with dispatch. Uh It was a wonderful experience as tom I'm sure tom would share that judge maker was a little little more uh yeah, kind of standoffish. Uh wasn't that personable uh judgment call

trick uh family ties I told you about early he worked in Petaluma and close to the family cranky, very cranky in those days in a divorce case we call them divorce cases and dissolution of marriage. In those those days we had to put testimony on and

an uncontested uh divorce and it was generally extreme cruelty. And you'd have your client testify to some element of cruelty. But then you had have you had to have a corroborating witness and sometimes I got a little dicey, you know, and but it's uncontested. So you

just put on something like that. And twice Judge Mcgoldrick after I faced. Mr barnabus, the corroboration seems a little thin, but he ultimately granted just in there sweating bullets. How do you lose an uncontested? Um, so in those early days there was accommodation calendar probate, criminal

everything on one day Mondays would be calendar day, master calendar, all the law and motion order to show cause is probate and Just about every county, every lawyer in the county, which wasn't many as 150 lawyers I think at that time you'd run into most of

them on a Monday. A lot of business got done inside outside of the court also because of that. And since you had experiences in other counties doing litigation over the course of your career, did you have a chance to see what other lawyers who felt about

the cinema county experience? Generally those who try cases here or do the judges. I'm trying to think. I'm trying to think nothing really specific, you know? Uh, I think when I'm in another county, I'm, I'm pretty much interested just in, uh, what the local lawyers think

about their judges. I do remember going to other counties and have the judges greet me uh, with familiarity because of their experiences with my father and my uncle. Remember as an Alameda County once in a law in motion in county court was full of lawyers. They

called my case and the judge greeted me and said, how's your father? Is he still practicing lies is sure he is. He says he beat the hell out of me with that shrink yet. But I get, I get a lot of that. Uh my, my father

paved the way for good and for bad in other counties. He had a situation in Napa county with one that there are just two judges and one of the judges everybody tried to avoid and everybody wanted um judge cons guard. Yeah, we all want to judge

concert. He's one of the best judges I've ever been before. I mean he was a terrific judge and my father just loved, he loved my father and the other, the other judge whose name slips my mind now everybody tried to avoid, no golden was county, What's

his name tom? You ought to know. Yeah, well I went anyway. Um, So my father brought back very good news from Napa County one time he was over there and he was in front of this other judge who he didn't like and they didn't get along

with each other. And he was born during a jury selecting a jury. And uh this judge, uh it was a blanket ship, blanket. Judge Blankinship as a judge. Now it's coming back to me, Judge blanket ship like to interrupt. He was sort of like cons comstock

and interrupting and he interrupted my father said something that outraged my father and my father shouted back at him, stop being a baby at cons guard comes there blankenship. Where am I going? Blankenship said I'm calling arrest recess. And uh he sent the jury out and

he brought my father into chambers and my father's fuming and he said, we're not gonna, we're not gonna start this trial today and I'm not gonna ever let you practice in my court again. And this was pop the court time. Father comes home, you can't believe

it. We were celebrating. And so I said to my father, I said I'm going to assume that this applies to all the lawyers in this firm. Several years later, blanket ship called me. He says, come on, I have to try this case that you have because

tom cons guards not available. You have to know that this, this ban doesn't apply to you. It just applies to your father. And I said, oh no applies applies the entire firm. I'm sorry. So whenever I had a lot of practice in napa and whenever I

go I went there I had one of the best judges I've ever known tom Yeah, that's terrific. Terrific. So in terms of cinema judges, as you progress to the practice, the judges changed what what what changes to recall on the Sonoma County bench? Well it is,

it got bigger and the practice of law got changed quite a bit. This um quasi frontier attitude which I really liked. Uh we were just a band of country lawyers, a small band. But uh we had our own culture which was similar to the culture throughout

California at the time And uh, it was entirely different as I tell, I tell the kids, I teach legal studies at casa grande. And I tell them that when I first started practicing law, client would come in and my question to them was how can I

help you? And we look for some way to help them in this country law. Sometimes they didn't have money, but I can remember myself and my father, uh, we would receive bounty from the land or something. Something they could give us on that. And that was

that was the practice that I grew up in. But I told my students that towards uh, towards the end of the practice, it was no longer, how can we help you? But lawyers are starting to ask how much money do you have? And uh that that's,

that was a big change for tom and I who grew up in a different era, different culture to see uh, those changes. The humor disappeared. Uh, the humor that I talked of in, in the various judges courts in the exchange. You don't see a lot of

that anymore. Or I didn't, I haven't been in the court for a couple of years now. But uh yeah. Uh well there was always an element of incivility. Uh, depending on the, on the lawyers, my father could be very cantankerous and I can remember reading transcripts

of all depositions. My father was taken in our law office down on fourth street and on the record, he would be challenging some lawyer from out of the county to go outside in the parking lot and settle it uh, in a manly fashion. And I remember

judge man telling telling me one time we've had a few drinks, we've been up at the patch locker ranch, shooting pigs and anything that walked and he was, he at that point said to me he's confiding, he says one of the things that scares him the

most is that my father would lose his temper in in his court and he doesn't know what he would do. But my father would, would lose his temper and towards certain judges. A lot of judges. And it's, it just shocked them. And uh, so man troubled

man. What would link do because my father and links brother were very good friends. Yeah. Well I remember an old timer telling me when I left brown skin and keegan for and he said, well there's just a few bastards that practice here, but we all know

who they are. Yeah. Yeah. The ones that you have to back up with a letter confirming the conversation on the whole. You yeah, you can count it on your hand of those lawyers. And there were some uh, and you were wise to to send a confirming

letter uh, to them. But nowadays it's the rigor. You you you better send confirming letters. My father, we used to take depositions because we did a lot of insurance defense work as well as plaintiff work. And we take depositions every saturday morning And my father would

really get upset with me if I took a deposition that lasted 45 minutes. And we'd really get upset when we got stuck on a saturday deposition with my uncle Carlton's Bridge in who would take a couple hours. And to us that was unheard of to to

spend a couple hours on a deposition. I tried this one case in L. A. And my client was disposed deposed over time. 13 days in three different states. Uh, we tried the case in L. A. And it lasted about 11 days. They never finished my client's

deposition because they ran at a time that came up. So I'm thinking of that 13 days of unfinished of an unfinished deposition. Uh, that pretty much tells you about the changes. I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. He, he married Mabel Mabel, my father's sister. Yeah. They

didn't get along too well. Did not. I um, I had a plaintiff case against Carlos Bridge. It's the last trial he ever tried. Um, and um, I think he thought it was gonna be a slam dunk for him, but it turned out I got a, I

got a plaintiff verdict and it got a little cantankerous at times and I talked to the jury. I like talking to the jurors after trials. I talked to the jurors asked me said, hey, you know, that was my uncle. No way. How could you talk to

that? But you know, civility. Uh in those days we could get cantankerous, we could say things, but we always we never crossed that line in court. And because because of that, because it was a small bar we were able to get together after and kid each

other and and tell stories and uh have a good time, you know, and we laugh about what one person the other I would do. I remember tom and I probably one of the only cases we had during the D. A's office I was defending in a

criminal case. I forget what it was about. And tom made fun of me. All right. That did sound like my phone. So you were in the office and you know, Tom was in the D. A. Was defending. I used a phrase in my closing argument where

I was cheating. Tom as referring to his theory of an exotic malady I think was that. And tom tom won the case. He got his conviction and he kept kidding me about exotic maladies. But you know, that was good natured uh win or lose. We were

able to go out and have a good time after that nowadays. Uh at least in the last 10 or 15 years. It is this World War three with lawyers on the other side, you just can't speak to them. You don't even want to be in the

same room with them and uh, depositions going on and on and on as soon as I get, as soon as I get a case and go to the first deposition on the other side. And I look around and I see a palatial office. I'm just saying

this is gonna be tough overhead rules this case. You know, I remember a case, I forget why I was in the courtroom, but you were signed out and it was all set to start and the other side comes in and puts a whole stack of paperwork

on your desk basically motions and lemonade and all generated and remember to put the garbage head because you know, the old joke used to be, you know, most motions and lemonade have to be handled during the course of the trial as the evidence comes in. But

I remember how you just didn't bother you in the least. You know, you were more concerned about taking the jury, worried about the technicality. I didn't have time to read that, do that all the time. Thank you. How can we try the case? So now again,

going back to the earlier years of trying cases, um, there were certain spots where lawyers and judges went to after the proceedings or sometimes in the middle of the afternoon. Yeah, I I didn't really get involved in that too much being from Petaluma I after the

day, I generally want to just get out of town because in santa rosa. Uh, but there were places that I ended up, los robles, I'd end up there uh, with, uh, if I'm doing uh insurance defense, my claims manager and I would go over there. Uh,

there was fiore eas, uh, before the courthouse moved from downtown. There was the Topaz room, which was, uh, not part of my life, but I heard stories about the Topaz room growing up. That's where all the lawyers, all the judges would go was right. It was

right there in the square. And uh, I'm sure there were fights there and all kinds of things there because it was frontier. Did you see, I mean as a pendulum, a lawyer and it's still like this to some extent, there's Petaluma lawyers don't get as involved

events as the santa rosa. Well, we pedal lumens don't share yes, yes, don't share the same enchantment for what I call the armpit of Sonoma County santa rosa. I once said that I was in my office during a deposition, arbitration or something. And, and um, I

can't remember who it was as a santa rosa lawyer. Nice guy. And I've known her for a while and he was kind of pooh poohing petaluma and I looked at him and says, you know, uh, santa rosa throughout the county is considered to be the armpit

of Sonoma County and I thought he was gonna cry, he was so shocked and crushed by that which made me feel good. Well the other thing that's developed, you're well aware over the last 10 or 15 years I guess maybe longer is the concept of mediations

and more aggressive settlement conferences encouraged by the courts to relieve congestion and resolve cases amicably. Uh what was the posture in your 1st 10 or 15 years of practice in that regard? Well, it was almost unheard of. 1st 10 or 15 years alternate alternative dispute resolution.

And I I fell into it reluctantly because I didn't really believe it at the beginning. It's, it's essential. It's, it's saved a lot of grief for a lot of my clients because most cases can be resolved. It's just that I was kind of hooked on the

trial courts. Um I remember going before Judge Seder one time crowded family law calendar full of people and lawyers and there was a lawyer on the other side who I did not like was one of those lawyers you just didn't like and you couldn't trust them

And Judge Seder, he got God love him. He just did not want to make a decision that might affect any side or the other. And so he did something wonderful for the family law bar I think and saying go outside taking outside talk to each other,

work it out and I think that was born of his, his distaste for making a decision that might hurt one party or the other. And I think it's a brilliant way to solve that. So he told me because I want you to go outside with this

lawyer who I despised and talk to him. And I looked and I said Judge Seder, you want me to go outside and talk to this man? I can't stand the trout. And the, yeah, I'd like to do that. You have to understand Judge Seder. I come

from a tradition of courtroom combat. In fact, if I was president of the United States and I had a red button on my desk that if I press it, I could blow up the world, I would, what would you have me do about a week later,

Judge Boone comes up. Did you really say that? And I said yes. So uh that was a young Leroy lupus junior. Uh that did not appreciate uh the advanced thinking of Judge Seder and other judges about mediating. But I've changed since then. I've I've arbitrated, I've

been an arbitrator. I've been a mediator and I've settled some very difficult cases of my own uh my own clients through this process. And you know, I've made a lot of money on mediations. I was trying this uh I had this whistleblower case out of corporate

prison and uh Judge Judge Governor Davis Gray Davis just came into office. And this is a case of a lot of notoriety is nationwide 60 minutes uh legislative hearings as in the middle of and stuff. And I had, I had developed a friendship with a senator

from Los Angeles. His name was polanco who was leading up a lot of this prison reform stuff. And Gray Davis first day in office asked to come and have a meeting and they talked about the prison situations and as as they were leaving, polanco told Gray

Davis, there's one case you have to be aware of. That was the case I had, I think it's in your best interest to get that thing settled. So the following day I get a call from Polanco, Sand Gray Davis is going to order that case into

mediation. He wants that settled. Now how would you like to go to a mediation where the governor wants it settled. It was, it was like giving you carte blanc. It was a wonderful mediation. We settled for 1.7 million, you know, just walking apart. It was just

so I like mediation. Did you get involved in any of the bar picnics or not? I never, in my whole career went to a bar picnic. Um I, you know, most of the places were ploys are you? That's why I never went, but I've heard the

stories, you know, Kit and James wanted to punch out frank Finn maybe did I don't know there's uh there there were those days, they can get pretty rough. I did first. I don't know, it's just my personal, I didn't, I didn't feel like being a joiner

sort of thing. I I guess I never thought of it until today. I must have been kind of a maverick. Even the way I try cases, they're, they're so different than what anybody else does in the courtroom. Uh, it's just, it's where you tell young lawyers,

you know, you can watch my style and everything but don't try to copy and be yourself, find yourself. And I heard that right from the beginning, Maybe my father told me because I certainly wasn't the lawyer. My father was. I just, I developed my own style.

And because I guess I guess that's why I didn't go to a lot of bar. Thanks. I just had my own interest and everything. And I didn't follow the crowd getting back to the Petaluma court. So the transition injustices here. Remember any of that you mean

from Albert man or from from Raleigh a web to Al McMahon. Oh yeah, those were wonderful days. He would call his criminal calendar here in Petaluma on Mondays and there there would be a regular calendar. Nobody usually attended in the morning. But you all knew if

you had cases on the calendar that had to be resolved. They would be on the afternoon calendar. You would go over there for lunch, You bring your lunch and you, judge McMahon would be in the jury deliberation room with the D. A. And the public defender

and anybody who had a criminal case and we sat around the table uh gossiping and everything. But we did business too. And by the time we got done with that lunch would be about 1 30. We had the calendar wrapped up is you know, it's all

worked out. It's just wonderful. Then I would say all McMahon would say, ok let's go put this all on the calendar and we go in 1 30 call the calendar and we we state the deals and everything and we were there for about a half an

hour. And that was it. It was that's the way the law should have should be practiced. I can't now because of the sheer volume but to be able to sit around the table with the judge, the D. A. The public defender and the criminal defense lawyers.

We all knew each other. We trusted each other. We knew what likes and dislikes each other's had. And we worked it out and then what happened uh was man. Yeah. And after after McMahon, by that time I think santa rosa was starting to pull the cases

back to santa rosa. And eventually the courtroom now that we worked out of, it's still used. I've tried cases in there is recently within the last five or six years. Um but it's um it's just used to handle the overflow. Judge pro TEM that come in

and use it. So we never got back to that again. So on Mondays I'd be here for japan on Wednesdays. I drive over to Sonoma for judgment man because I had clients in, in both towns on the criminal calendar. I practiced criminal law for maybe 10

or 15 years as part of the general country lawyer approach. Then then we all started specializing after that. You know, I remember how the people in Sonoma and in Petaluma were very guarded about having their own courts remember? Yeah, it was a very bitter decision finally

pulled, you know, eliminated court appearances regularly by municipal court judges in Petaluma because the people, it was an inconvenience to the people. They have to go to santa rosa to say the least. And I know that it was a tough time. Yeah, that part didn't bother

me as far as having to go to santa rosa but we lost a lifestyle a way of practicing law that I lamented. Uh it was, it was special and I'm happy to have been able to be a part of that for a while. Although I have

to say I loved getting in my car on a Wednesday and sunday Wednesday and drive over to Sonoma. It's a beautiful drive in the, in the central building there at the city hall. That's where it was, it was a grand old courtroom there. I remember one

time going over there and there was an unlawful detainer hearing going on at that time and I looked at the witness and I just, I couldn't stop laughing. It was Juanita and I walked in and she's giving me the wink and everything are waving at me

and her lawyer was Jack Coffee. Um and Jack Coffee was wearing these little sunglasses and obviously was in a very bad mood because it's probably stuff that happened the night before. And the unrepresented defendant was a young man with a ponytail and Al McMahon is presiding

over this analysis getting ahead. You can take the headache and uh, uh, he said something to, to Jack Coffee about, would you respond to the defendant's questionnaire and coffee really grumpy. I'm over judge. You have to understand. I detest a man wearing a ponytail. No, no,

no, no, no, no, no. I have to re assert that. And let's take a recess and just get Jack back there. What happened? Civil matters, civil matters, civil matters. There were, there were some small civil cases that I tried in Petaluma and I think in Sonoma

also, you know, a couple hour hearings. Trials of very little consequence. Uh, by then it's a municipal court. So it'd be the, whatever the jurisdiction was at that time. 10,000. I think it's 10,000. Yeah. Yeah. So the, there are other justice courts you didn't sure. Okay,

tell me about them. The one that was the most colorful for me was point Reyes station went out there on a poaching case and I walked into this, this office as a secretary there, there's another desk there and the judges in that desk, come on in,

sit down, grab a chair, sit around the desk and conduct. He says whereabouts this happened back on one of those roads that come on, let's get in our cars. We drove out there and took a look at the area of the crime and everything. It was

wonderful. You know, I recently showed a film to my legal studies class at casa grande Anatomy of a murder. Remember that? And that brought back a lot of memories because there was a country lawyer, upper peninsula michigan in the 50s and uh huh they they created

the atmosphere that I grew up in in that movie watching that my my students didn't quite understand that plus it was in black and white so they had problems with that. But I, I sat back and enjoyed the hell with the kids. I want to watch

any other justice courts that you remember. Yeah in napa there was one little tyrant over there. I forget his name now. Um I had some preliminary hearings there uh on some drug cases And uh he, he was very difficult. Uh not a very capable man but

he had a wonderful court reporter who reported depositions for me and for judge cons guard chuck sims. Remember chuck chuck sims is recording and at one point we're close to the, we're close to the the street just like here and I guess a pickup or something

must have pulled up and there was some calves in there mooing and chuck sims in the, in the transcript which I read later sound of mooing calves. What are some of the in and the other lawyers when you started here? Remember personalities. Okay. There was Al

barons and Clyde nelson two very dignified gentleman uh and very capable good practices. Henry Soldati uh was a, he was pretty much wills and contracts and ultimately, or uh David troversy who was a classmate of mine at USF law school went in with Henry in practice.

Then when Jack King left our office, he went in practice with uh Dave troversy who was his cousin and oh we're some of the others. Yeah, yeah, yeah, learn something. Uh who else did they have? Oh bob mackie, uh bob and I were always clashing in

cases and he was, he was one of the difficult lawyers and it always gave me pleasure to beat him. I know I learned some about real quick about bob. We'd have some order to show cause is you know these uh domestic relations monday morning and I

learned that if if you objected to a document that he's gonna offer, he'd really fight to get it in. So a document I didn't think he wanted in, I would object to and he'd fight to get it in, let it go something I learned. I hope

bob. If you're watching this, forgive me. Oh there was Arthur Frankie sure Art was here and this young lawyer named jerry Nadler came up a little later who was the, there was one lawyer that his name slips my mind now he's long gone. He um we

tried a case against each other in just court in front of Al McMahon and it was, it was a silly little case, Christine hill. She lives a couple of blocks from you on B street. Her daughter was in a debutante ball or something. Christine made this

very expensive dress for her and when it was all over she sent it to the laundry laundry here, I forget which one it was and the dress lost its form and everything. And so she insisted that we sue the laundry for the value of the dress

and how much is the dress worth? $800, Okay, we'll sue for that. And the lawyer and this is a local lawyer whose name might come back, who might not um he couldn't here in this, this out of this year and I knew this because I'd have

lunch with them. No, this is here in town and no not john Burroughs. Yeah, this guy was much older than john well I knowing knowing that he had this problem and knowing that there was some evidentiary difficulties with some of the questions I was about to

ask, he was sitting at the table here, I was sitting here, I would stand up and I'd stand on this side to ask the questions and he didn't hear these questions so he didn't object. And so I won the case. You know, it's, it was things

like that that told me someday they're gonna get you for this, someday you're gonna get a little too old for practicing law. You're gonna be in the courtroom, you can't hear, you can't see if something's gonna go wrong, you can't remember names and it's gonna catch

up with you. So I was resolved when I get into my sixties. I gotta think about whether or not I want to continue trying cases and what about Yeah, yeah. Bill Bill. In fact, I, I think I tried at least one case to Bill here in

Petaluma. It was, I can't remember the case, but it was his corporate life. Good. It's good courtroom. Uh He um, it was not humorless. Uh and he handled things very professionally. Uh He was fun to work with and he's fun to work with as a mediator

to does he still mediate? I mean we, we had some great mediations with Bill. He, he was, he was, he was one of the best I think at that, you know, something else. No, I enjoyed appearing before him both in the municipal court and the spirit

court. Yeah, yeah. I think of him every time I drive by his spread there. Yeah, you might share with, Well he was secretaries. Nicholson was a court reporter out of san Francisco. Initially it was Nicholson and Nicholson I think was his brother or his father. Uh

They, they were very popular in san Francisco's court reporters. But Socrates ended up uh right there by the store Netta dairy at the crossroads there on the way to napa. And so we started using him as a court reporter and I'd run into him in napa

also. And then he would run the preliminary hearings in Sonoma Petaluma because he was close to his home. So he and Al McMahon became very close friends and having Socrates Al on the bench and Socrates recording typically for a very interesting day. Mhm. Questions anything that

you can remember anywhere that you'd like to add that courts or judges or anything unusual or, or or not. There's a lot in there, but there's just not enough time. There's not enough time. A lot of it's just come back and the discussions we're having. But

uh, you guys don't have that kind of time. Nor do I, it was a real pleasure. Thank you for coming to Petaluma. Tom nice to you