00:00:12.260 - 00:00:48.620

uh, where you came from? How you ended up in Sonoma County to start with? Well I was born in Great Falls Montana, 1933 at columbus hospital, which was located across the alley from my grandma. And when it was raised mostly in butte Montana, when I went

00:00:48.620 - 00:01:24.330

to my first year of high school and boy central high school. When my family moved to Santa Rosa in 1947. Right after the war and the boot strikes. Yeah, yeah. Six kids german shepherd And 48 Pontiac torpedo. Yeah, there was no house. E. So we lived

00:01:24.330 - 00:01:59.050

in a little two bedroom ranch cabin out in the countryside probably. I just don't know what the day, what the name of the family is today, but west of san rosa Northwest. Then we've got a house which is brand new, built on north Beaver Street and

00:01:59.050 - 00:02:31.460

that's where I was living. When I graduated high school, just about that time we moved to Mcdonald Avenue where my family lived at the time. I went away to college. He was a private insurance adjuster, represented many, many insurance companies, but his own business, he was

00:02:31.460 - 00:03:07.850

a partner of Harley Harmony who was in later years. The m poorer employer of our fellow friend judge and in any event. So I went down to santa clara After finishing High School, two years of Junior College and then stayed down there through law school In

00:03:07.850 - 00:03:27.520

1957, I graduated and passed the bar and there's a certificate, if you believe it or not. I had never seen one of those before. One day it arrived in the mail I said what the hell is this? We'll get a shot of that later. So you

00:03:27.520 - 00:03:51.000

passed the bar and you're living your family was already living in santa rosa. Yeah okay. Yeah. I was in sacramento 57. We have an epidemic of flu in the state that year. You guys don't remember that. But school teachers were dropping off like flies state of

00:03:51.000 - 00:04:27.910

California credited me with a teacher's credential. And so one school I taught english in Sacramento high school in Mcclatchy high School for a couple of months until my ROTC contract which was called R. O. C. With the Navy came to and I was ordered overseas. So

00:04:29.290 - 00:05:01.350

I signed up with the Navy Reserve when I was in senior in high school because Korea broke out and my coach George weeks jimmy out of hills buddy says they'll never activate a whole Naval reserve company at one time whereas they will army. So don't. So

00:05:01.350 - 00:05:30.310

if you want to go to school, get in the Navy Reserve which I did here locally and kept it up. All those college in law school because I was specially trained and electronics and qualified. I mean that was security clearance qualified and two summers in college

00:05:30.850 - 00:05:55.060

I wanna know in Long Beach and one in Newport around for officer candidate school Upon graduation I was supposed to be commissioned and goodbye but I didn't graduate. Talk to university and to let me go to law school. Said with no graduation. And then when I

00:05:55.060 - 00:06:18.860

graduated from law school, I convinced the navy to let me at least take the bar exam before they grabbed me, which they eventually did. But as I say, one month after the bar exam I was in school sacramento friday night. A guy in full navy dark

00:06:18.860 - 00:06:44.840

blue commander's uniform pierced the door and says, here's your orders report for Treasure island tomorrow morning saturday and see him. My order said you report to Bremerhaven Germany by thursday of the next week. Being original on monday and then catch the blue plate special to europe

00:06:44.850 - 00:07:12.320

which were in those days was a D. C. Six B 22 hour flight from Washington to Shannon. Yeah. So when you, when you got out of the service, you came back to Sonoma County and did you directly, you started practicing them? Well, yes, I got a

00:07:12.320 - 00:07:41.920

job as I told tom the other day with frank muk off frank mike off was the D. A. Of plaster bill. I think that the county of Sonoma hired For $25,000 a year as their first public defender. That $25,000 I was supposed to pay him for

00:07:42.430 - 00:08:20.640

investigation his time and then he health, he had he could have his own practice. So he hired me. I went over to county officers swore myself in became the first counties assistant public defender. First ever first ever. Was that 1960. Have you had any experience at

00:08:20.640 - 00:08:47.870

all in the practical application of practicing law. Yeah. Two years running a legal laws in Germany with no books because my skipper said you're a lawyer, you don't need books. You place me when I was relieved with a four striper who shipped in $15,000 law library

00:08:47.870 - 00:09:17.120

in the navy, you know, just depends on, you know, when you know, no, that was my experience court martials. Uh and basically it was defending other branches of service. So when you came on board with how many superior court judges were there? Two Hilliard comstock and

00:09:18.140 - 00:09:54.880

china and Mcgoldrick, what happened to Gary Kerry had just died? Bill's dad had retired retired from the the bench on the way back from a trip he and Madeline to South America and as I heard the story from the judge himself and from Bill, he got

00:09:54.880 - 00:10:21.960

real sick on board ship and they thought he was gonna die. So he sent a telegram resigning because in those days there was no carryover from the pension to the widow from the judge. So when he recovered and came back to santa rosa, he was out

00:10:21.960 - 00:10:53.360

of a job as a judge and he joined the olds Gary formed fridge and firm. Ah but that was just the year before I came back and then that he had birch bad on the heel by a doctor. You this race And john Moskowitz was gonna

00:10:54.230 - 00:11:24.190

take his case. But john I didn't see the malpractice with it. And Donald gary got matter to hell it's quit and told john and Carlton and impressed you. All good ill. And he at that time started way across the street join bill. So when you started,

00:11:24.200 - 00:11:42.880

when you first started practicing law here, there were two judges. And how did they hours? What can you tell us about court in those days? More than two judges? But to superior Court judges, you know, we didn't have a municipal court. We had a justice court

00:11:43.990 - 00:12:08.860

and it was in the basement of the old courthouse. So that was Scheidegger from Tabasco Andy hill court down there. And that's where you went. So who were your counterparts in the D. A. S. Office when you first came on board? Jack, Jack. Shea paul judas

00:12:08.860 - 00:12:35.480

E guys was joe Murphy there yet. I don't know. See I was trying to think about that the other day. What happened to joe? Where was joe? No, they weren't. They were Dennis was not. He had graduated from the D. A. Business I think. And but

00:12:35.480 - 00:13:07.720

I don't know where joe was because I remember when joe got, there was a big campaign, uh get him on the bench when Lincoln was ring like man who was made the first municipal court judge and when he was gonna replace comstock? There was a big

00:13:07.720 - 00:13:35.250

effort joe Murphy as a municipal court judge where the hell he was before that, I don't know, you know, but so you were in trial a lot. What in those days? Do you understand that in 1960 our constitutional rights were that you didn't, you weren't entitled

00:13:35.250 - 00:14:06.660

to a lawyer at the state's expense. Yes. Uh and the county was faced with the decision when they hired McAuliffe in 59. I'm happy to do that. So they made this deal. Yeah, but only for felonies, no misdemeanor. It's so frank had who was a boozer,

00:14:08.070 - 00:14:36.370

he had to have somebody talk to these guys because he wasn't gonna do it. So I spent every night every single five days a week, not 75 days a week in the jail talking to the prisoners to jail. I don't know if you remember this or

00:14:36.370 - 00:15:11.750

not, jail is now our E. F. S. Is jail of the sheriff's department and right across the parking lot. What's that city police force that floors office. Right. When I was here three months It seems like three months there was the most notorious murder case. I

00:15:11.750 - 00:15:42.270

think still even today in san juan county's history, the locker Bonnie murder case hate like a block of Bonnie was a very famous bartender worked on to pass later. Ronnie had his own place, his brother's wife was murdered on her in her back porch, stoop. So

00:15:42.280 - 00:16:06.950

hit over the head and just land in the middle of the day and nobody knew anything about it, how it happened or anything but it was of such notoriety and the press democrat stirred up the notoriety that they had everybody scared of their shadow to the

00:16:06.950 - 00:16:31.660

extent it old man on College avenue shot a couple of kids killed him on his front porch because he knocked on his door and he was upset. Well that was a big trial and there I was frank was trying the case. I was sitting right next

00:16:31.660 - 00:17:01.480

to him and here was joe Maddox who was the D. A. And ken Highland who was his assistant sitting over there. Remember this is 1960 and no tv our our computers we had as the defense psychiatrist, joke ken you ever heard of him? He used to

00:17:01.480 - 00:17:23.830

be a big star witness for Clarence Gerald until the end when he testified against him. But joe cat lived in Berkeley and he came up here and spend some time with us. Keep in mind that this guy that they arrested and finally they were trying for

00:17:23.830 - 00:17:54.250

the murder of walter. Fons had confessed 43 times to his minister, to the district attorney. To anybody and everybody both Maddox and island and I mean it was just mhm. Everybody had walter's friend was walter's friend and walter told him while he hit her over the

00:17:54.250 - 00:18:37.760

head. Yeah. So while we didn't plead insanity. We we approached it from that point of view for a trial. Hungary. Hungary second trial hung jury and then Karen frank made a deal with send walter to Atascadero for life wow. It turned out the guy was nuts.

00:18:38.120 - 00:19:02.820

So you were the second chair. Yeah all three trials only the first trial. Second trial. They had some woman who they call as a witness who testified that I had interviewed her before the first trial and she had told him told me something. I forgot what

00:19:02.820 - 00:19:34.820

the fact was. But the ride said we didn't need her so she was not testifying and that I turned her down and I was you know colucci so frank didn't want me there. Mhm 1960 You know I remember when that trial was 60 61. Yeah. How

00:19:34.820 - 00:19:54.320

long were you with the public defender? two years. Okay. And what happened? So tell me about this. I mean I remember this bridge and firm but so how when you went there, how big was it? Who was there? Well see I was the eighth or ninth.

00:19:54.320 - 00:20:40.690

It was Carlton john frank with Bill and And me I guess I was the 7th. Was that still at the time? The biggest firm in santa rosa? Yeah right there it was. That was around 1960-1963 62. Okay. Yeah. Um Stay that way. Name changed a couple

00:20:40.690 - 00:21:01.690

of times. Um increased in numbers Eventually we got to be 21 or 22 or something like that. Tom you came in 68 I think he said. And how long were you in the in the D. A. S office and then you went to work for Leo

00:21:01.690 - 00:21:36.520

Gleason and George Murphy. Yeah. George Murphy was a very terse, wonderful, wonderful man, Carl's Pridgen who was a grand old man too, but he had a habit of never conducting business in his own office. He and he wouldn't return phone calls or answer letters. He just,

00:21:37.340 - 00:21:54.410

but he could go to the library, which is where he spent most of his time and you talk about some point of law and they go over to the shelf and pull a book out that there was George Murphy wrote Carlton, the letter one time that

00:21:54.410 - 00:22:29.440

I was over probably nosing around, I should have been, here's Georgia Carl as time goes by, you're even harder to get a hold of than the pope signed. Oh that's good. Yeah. Well at the time those years there were basically three major firms in santa rosa,

00:22:30.220 - 00:23:07.050

you know, was not one. Anderson Macdonald building. Uh and the male probably was maybe not big in numbers but in turnover was, and don't forget, but demand has had some lawyers in there that we don't know anything about anymore because they're long gone. But nick and

00:23:07.050 - 00:23:33.960

charlie hired a couple of lawyers Through the years, our 60s and 70's to try cases for him. The big prime skaters, nick was always so tight that he didn't want higher, somebody from san Francisco? He got hired his own lawyer but they never did Well well

00:23:33.960 - 00:23:55.300

those are the days of contributory negligence, right, you know, And were you doing exclusive defense work when you went on board as bridge in? Well, I mean insurance defense work. Yeah, that's the way it turned out. That's the way, that wasn't the way it began. That's

00:23:55.300 - 00:24:16.640

the way it turned out in those days. What was it like? I mean we have now an era where everything is geared towards mediation and settlement but things were different then and what was it like being a litigator? Well I've got a couple of old bills

00:24:16.640 - 00:24:48.380

in there where I see I'm charging $40 an hour and I can remember frank barrett used to say depositions regardless For 75 bucks. So if you took a five page deposition with 75 bucks or if you took 100 and five pages ah And he usually takes

00:24:48.390 - 00:25:22.740

five pages and then he'd say here, Ken, here's a case you can try. Yeah, but you found yourself in trial quite a bit. Yeah, I tried cases gary yeah, Sonoma, mendocino napa like in marin counties consistently. Probably tried as many cases in mendocino as I did

00:25:22.740 - 00:25:59.040

in Sonora have to be quite good friends with the lawyers up there, the judges except had the office across from the courthouse, The real tall guy, what was his name? Cook. Yeah, no, do you remember that judge that was on the bench getting beat by, what's

00:25:59.040 - 00:26:25.300

his name? And then he went down there. Bill actors lawyer in Hollywood. No, no no no no no forget thing guy used to rise to instructions, never give a baggy instruction. That's where I met in brand Moran just finished the case in front of this guy

00:26:26.680 - 00:26:52.380

and was in the limelight right up there. So when you were trying cases in the 1960s that was pre Rediscovery Act. You had greyhound but In the 60s. But what was it like in the pretrial preparation? Well I got plenty of letters in this notebook here

00:26:53.400 - 00:27:22.040

in front of me from law schools and other lawyers thanking me for my participated in the like yours on how to do this now to do that. I spent every time it seemed to me like every time nick to bail who was very popular at law

00:27:22.040 - 00:27:45.620

schools because of the books. He was very popular speaker but every time he would get invited to speak someplace he called me up and said you want to go So sure so I go and the point was I'd be as foil, I'm the defense lawyer foils

00:27:47.420 - 00:28:13.230

and I always got these letters, thanking me for participation. But yeah, to answer your question directly, you know, we were getting started with discovery and uh the lectures were about how to do things because and did I try a lot of cases. Yeah because at the

00:28:13.230 - 00:28:44.720

rate I quoted to you why insurance company for example, I could try losses. I used to try lawsuits three or 4 days then it became weak and then nowadays time you know weeks and I told you on the phone when that Loretta make Henry case for

00:28:44.720 - 00:29:17.260

his General Motors big trial. But God I as I sat here and thought about it, it never drawn on me that trick. 15 weeks. That was in the mid 70s and it was a products liability lawsuit against General Motors and the retailer and you know. Yeah.

00:29:18.460 - 00:29:43.610

Good guy. Pop Cartwright speed reader. Quickest reader I've ever seen ever met. You know when you mentioned the lawyer up in Mendocino County, the name starts with an a what was it again? The guy that was missing a leg. What was it? A war injury or

00:29:43.610 - 00:30:09.670

something? Yeah, it might have been. I don't know for sure. But he would collapse it on and collapse it off. Yeah, well once I came off and stayed off but but yeah, so the juries were pretty conservative to say the least. Uh Northern. Well in Mendocino

00:30:09.670 - 00:30:37.320

County, the juries were unpredictable. My very first loss. Um the deeply hurt me a corsage try this case for me happened. It's a winner. You can't, you gotta okay fact situation little old lady is driving down the street fort Bragg and gets hit by a kid

00:30:37.360 - 00:31:16.880

home from the navy on leave with a certain borders back to stop his car, bang fender bender but she can't hear. Mhm whatever it was, she can't hear. So she lived with her husband in a trailer among other trailer livers in the woodworking town of out

00:31:16.880 - 00:31:46.980

in the sticks, Minnesota county. I want to say not not boonville, but some place they all come to court and here are these old guys with choppers testifying while Montana that was her name. Montana curragh wits Montana status over for friday night fights watching T. V.

00:31:46.990 - 00:32:07.370

And we can't hear because we're used to the SARS going all day and so we have to sit up front in Montana. The secret should actually practically leave the trailer because it was so loud. But now after this accident for Montana, well she had to sit

00:32:07.370 - 00:32:34.990

in the first row this one and on three or four or five witnesses like this nelson was the guy that tried this case and I had all these medical doctors, her own doctor who said another round of municipal hysteria. Yeah. And then I had, I had

00:32:34.990 - 00:33:07.100

to gild the lily. So I had big fancy specialist neurosurgeon, nothing, nothing lady, nothing probably, she's historian. She's probably going through the change of life rebuttal Montana on the witness stand. This is a big, great big female, big gal bigger than I was. I don't have

00:33:07.100 - 00:33:39.020

a change of life. Oh I got my period right now. Oh yeah so the jury was out nearly all day and they came back with a $10,000 verdict which was a lot of money in those days. Because I think if I recall The policy limits in

00:33:39.020 - 00:34:08.220

those days were five and 10 maybe they just don't know. But it was a lot of money. And uh from up there making a motion for a new trial your buddy O'brien. He says you think I'm gonna grant you a new trial based on what the

00:34:08.220 - 00:34:40.880

whole those doctors. I know what happened to that lady. He says to me on the court, she probably stretched her second verbal. Alright. I said well tell me that again. Judge that's what happened to mom denied almighty jesus first loss. Well that was the one I

00:34:40.880 - 00:35:17.470

remember that was it. Who was the partner that said decor? So in Snowmen County back in those days. Um What you remember about the judges in security court hearing in front of him? I remember that. I was always in trouble me personally. Uh Hilliard, I don't

00:35:17.470 - 00:35:47.780

know was he around alive? Even when you were well he had a mane of silver air and he lived on the corn stock houses on Mancino across the old from my house. Ah And he would walk with his cane diamonds, you know to the intersection of

00:35:47.780 - 00:36:16.100

college and then down street further all the way to the courthouse every day that it wasn't raining. How do you, how do you do? Hello Judge? How do you do? I mean it was like yeah caesar and he conducted his court room the same way. Yeah.

00:36:17.280 - 00:36:46.650

To give you an example. My very first superior court trial by myself was a missed was a felony marijuana case and with paul judas e with the prosecutor and hell I didn't know anything about marijuana. I don't think Sonoma County really did in those days. So

00:36:46.650 - 00:37:13.800

lefty in with my client, Lefty was from Los Angeles and he knew about marijuana. But anyway the local gendarmes and followed him around and then picked him up at four in the morning and brought him more to the police station, search his car, found a bunch

00:37:13.800 - 00:37:44.910

of marijuana in his car. So he was being tried and you want to testify. So right ahead so he makes the sign of the cross. He's got a bible in his hand. I guess I started testifying and he says they planted it. They planned it. What

00:37:44.910 - 00:38:08.680

do you mean? Well I'm sitting in this guy's office touch for his office, looking out the window in the courtyard parking lot there between the buildings. And I saw him searching my car and they set up the trunk and he found my lunch box in there

00:38:10.040 - 00:38:48.420

lunch pail and this big guy that's for grab something for someplace okay and stuff it into my favorite bottle. At which point says, are you telling this jury that our Chief of police stuff marijuana in your thermos bottle? Yes sir. I am no front row. Is

00:38:48.420 - 00:39:11.300

that floor? I'm his favorite kid. He sent a letter to santa cleric helped me get a grant made way back when he was so damn man. Oh God. Was he mad? You know, I can remember when he poured out the beer at the high school games

00:39:11.300 - 00:39:38.730

and stuff? He was mad kids then. But this time he was really mad. Yeah. But so was the judge and the judge, the judge that comment in front of right. Are you kidding? Yeah, he he had a very perverse says about him. He loved to hear

00:39:38.730 - 00:39:58.350

default divorces. But if he had any sense at all, you would never have a default divorce in front of him. Was he still on the bench when you because you used to be able to say that you and your little mary jessen. So it was a

00:39:58.350 - 00:40:31.840

year and you live this year and he treated you with you know, difficulties. Mhm. Yes. The agency just a minute. Were there any sexual overtone to this? And the woman would say there's always a woman to get the divorce. Well uh sometimes tell me about those.

00:40:33.070 - 00:40:59.050

It doesn't make any worse what it was there. You were. So he didn't ever try uncontested divorces in front of that's called stock. But she had to go to my cold brick. And he was just as bad because he was he was acid. What do you

00:40:59.050 - 00:41:24.730

mean all the same. This guy that I told you about that planted the marijuana. He got retried. And this time the D. A's office decided put some or intuit they brought some couple of investigators up from Los Angeles and this is that the other, he was

00:41:24.730 - 00:41:57.320

in front of Mcgoldrick. Yeah. So uh I made some objections to this to that. And uh he didn't like that. Judges don't like it when you object to sting grisly, you know, at least not in those days, they didn't cover up their feelings very well. And

00:41:57.320 - 00:42:19.660

then if you remember the old courthouse had those big passageways between chambers and the courtroom themselves. Mcgoldrick says to me on more than one occasion, come back to right cameras. I want to tell you something young man. I went to school with your father and I'll

00:42:19.660 - 00:42:39.100

tell you what or my dead body, you'll be a lawyer, you'll be washed out. Oh God, you can't talk to me like that. You can't do that. And the night that I had a fist fight with Michael man. He calls me in the following monday. I

00:42:39.100 - 00:43:12.310

was the meanest man business. But nevertheless community judge. What do you mean attacking the judge? Oh God, he was that way. So when did it change the change? Yeah. When you got, when you got down Mcgoldrick and Hilliard was gone. Then you had a whole new

00:43:12.310 - 00:43:38.140

breed cats and they for the most part I guess they were okay. Except I didn't think so because joe Murphy was a wonderful man and a good judge. But so help me God he could make a decision. He scratches and scratches it and scratched it and

00:43:38.140 - 00:44:11.570

never make a decision. Yeah. And hell I used to I was in the courthouse so much that less Manker and I had an ongoing putting contest in his office. He had the balls and the clubs and the glass and we'd put off on his office floor.

00:44:13.090 - 00:44:49.220

Damn. I'm an eyewear. Pretty good friends played golf together and so on. So eventually you obviously got out of the criminal law defense field and became more active in civil litigation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it involved a lot of public entity work, did it not well,

00:44:49.220 - 00:45:27.360

you know. Mhm. For many, many, many, many years pacific indemnity company insured governmental energies including the state of California county of Sonoma and so on. And I did a lot of their work forever. So yeah, I always represent the governmental entities when they were so insured.

00:45:29.830 - 00:46:03.570

But then all the rest too. But as I said earlier. Yeah, litigation wasn't so expensive. The trial. The end result was the b at all. Not how good you look in there or how much money you could spend getting there, you know, much different focus. Well.

00:46:03.570 - 00:46:24.530

Gary. I remember when you I I don't remember the case but I remember being in your office when you were in a mediator harbor trade something for somebody and I was involved. You don't remember that, remember that, you know, and I, and I, but I do,

00:46:24.530 - 00:46:42.010

I remember that, but I don't remember the case right there, what it was about or all turned out or anything, but I remember meeting you then and that seems to me like things begin to change. You went from, you went from Bridgend, did you? Is that

00:46:42.010 - 00:47:06.380

when you went with Ken, Jack? Yeah. Right. Because that's when I broke up, I met you early on in that when you broke off and it did with 88 82 or 88. It was probably 80-82, probably came up from San Francisco. I was in the city,

00:47:06.380 - 00:47:31.730

I came up in 82 with Fred Okay. Right. Yeah. And that's when things started to change a little bit. Remember the generation before mine was trying a lot more cases and more, it started to focus on mediation. Well, there was a guy here, I don't know

00:47:31.730 - 00:48:02.270

if you ever met him. Sure. Senior. Yeah, yeah. He was in court every week in trial almost every, almost every week when I first got here in the first two years. And thereafter it was b I had five keys on the master calendar every week. Every

00:48:02.270 - 00:48:35.550

week, pick one. I'm gonna try out. That's the way I went. But again, a lot of that was contributory negligence and I apparently had a pretty good argue with it because I don't know at one time early on, I think In 78 or something like that

00:48:35.550 - 00:49:12.060

or 79 I figured I tried 300 cases to verdict 78 or 79. Yeah, you know, I was dominant, bob Cartwright nominated me for membership in the american college of trial lawyers. Uh And I joined in 19 I think 79 in Dallas and you know, you take

00:49:12.060 - 00:49:39.980

your tuxedo and it's a very formal thing. It was at least in those days I have very fond memories of being the only guy in 1000 people in this whole hotel ballroom lawyer from literally all over the world with a beard meeting a young guy like

00:49:39.990 - 00:50:05.260

stood out like a tub full. I mean it was and I'm standing in line getting a drink and this little guy, he was little, it was in front of me and I don't know how it got started but we started talking about bourbon and I like

00:50:05.270 - 00:50:27.230

my bourbon bourbon and ditch and he said bourbon and ditch, I never heard of that. Mine bourbon and branch, I said, well ditches from butte water came in ditches and that's what they call the bourbon and ditch. He said well mike branch water turned out it

00:50:27.230 - 00:50:45.670

was griffin bell, the attorney General of the United States stand right in front of me talking to me about debating bourbon ditch, I'll never forget that. But he was a little guy. That's great and I had a beard like it wasn't quite like now reddish you

00:50:45.670 - 00:51:03.280

know here there's an article in your papers that you left here for us to read and I can just read it because it's kind of looks like 82 was the year that you did the James Captain Freeman thing and the american College of Trial Lords in

00:51:03.280 - 00:51:18.640

79. I'm not sure what date this is but it had to do with you being with James Jackson Freeman and your recorder as saying quote, a good problem solver. I'm good at it because I have a good understanding of people and I'm not afraid to go

00:51:18.640 - 00:51:37.890

to court. Insurance companies, assess the experience of the lawyers to challenge them, James says and offer lower settlements amount to inexperienced lawyers. The same companies would boost a settlement offer where the opposing lawyer is quote, not afraid to take them to court and they're ass. So

00:51:37.890 - 00:52:02.920

is that a reality of life that people would assess the trial ability of opposing counsel and evaluation. Uh Let's see best attorney for business law by James Dunn some sort of a magazine county in the Yeah, very very very, absolutely true. That uh was like in

00:52:02.920 - 00:52:33.720

your case. I mean I would evaluate case one way if you're gonna try it then differently than for example bob Sinai, you know, I see in one of your little summaries of your background. Is that you actually worked as a judge. Pro TEM Oh yeah, I

00:52:33.720 - 00:53:06.460

got pictures. I'm the very first judge with pro temp in the county in front of Conrad Hoskins and he wants his name up there in Healdsburg. Her, my handsome had the baseball guy school district. So ken when other than the, you had the, when you started

00:53:06.460 - 00:53:28.150

the superior courts and you had justice courts And there were several of them weren't there? We only had one. I don't remember one. The only one I remember, but at some point in the 60s, early on, it seems to me santa rosa got a municipal court.

00:53:29.680 - 00:54:11.380

I can't remember how that came about. But I can remember my dad tell me that he was all for Lincoln man mm hmm. Becoming the court judge. I can't remember when that was. But I think link then link went up superior court when, when comstock died.

00:54:11.390 - 00:54:36.740

Huh hm I think so. Right. About the time when they have the new courthouse. Well, since you tried cases in so many counties, you have ability to give us a viewpoint of the quality of our bench and the quality of the lawyers in this community. Right.

00:54:37.550 - 00:55:28.860

Well, we always had a pretty good bench then. Uh, but so did napa tom conquered. And uh, those guys are good, But there's only two. Ah, was used to sit with all the time. No. Oh guy with a bad

00:55:28.860 - 00:55:54.880

back that bill Bill Gary and I and Jack to male had the syphilis running inbound. Yeah, we're Jacquimo had a car. This is the days when the guests touched. Still applicable. And Jack joe had a car full of guys going to Mayor Island to work one

00:55:54.880 - 00:56:16.060

day and I had a car full of guys going to Maryland to work one day and bill had a car Maryland guys going to work one day, all of which collided at an intersection and Jack's people were definitely ill, you know, terrible injuries. So we had

00:56:16.060 - 00:56:49.710

a trial and Gary who doesn't say much, didn't say much at times was examining one of these plaintiffs of, yeah, Jackson. He said, how long have you had this background? Oh, ever since his act? Well, no, you've had this back problem from many years amateur since

00:56:49.710 - 00:57:46.290

you were in the 5th sweet over China. What do you mean? Yes. Well you had syphilis. Yeah. Poor Jack jumps up and screams and hollers. This doesn't go blind and uh, yeah, judge I was hoping maybe I can't think of the ah, no,

00:57:46.300 - 00:58:18.530

he took it under submission. It was a friday after he came back and he says, well, no, it's a legitimate medical issue. So therefore not. Um, so Gary, was it just about ready to pursue them four o'clock. So we went home for the weekend, settle the

00:58:18.530 - 00:58:43.350

case during the weekend. But apparently in these medical records and where the hell got them. I don't know because I'd never see him. But that was my very first learning experience with read the medical because what you find in there sometimes has nothing to do with

00:58:43.350 - 00:59:28.030

the case but everything to do with the case. So as your they didn't have the truth is they didn't and that was Bill's point judge. They don't here soon. There was no cure some of these guys to sulfa drugs. Good tertiary stage. Yeah. So so did

00:59:28.030 - 01:00:11.040

you ever get involved in mediations and the like? And where did you see that changing the practice uh in your Yeah, she couldn't passed the bar to start with. And Jack gave her a job. Somebody on her job first round and he finally passed the bar

01:00:12.240 - 01:00:42.010

and then she gets involved as mediators. And she said to me one time you should this is not for you, you're you don't have the patience. And she's right. Probably I didn't that ken, did you used to attend the bar association functions? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm

01:00:42.010 - 01:01:17.440

glad you brought that up. I don't want to sound like bad guy but we used to letter from tom Macon's card P. S. My God, can you are really getting fussy. See what city of that? I was bitching about his pretrial conference or and levers. Yellow

01:01:17.440 - 01:01:48.990

cat. I liked him. He was, I liked him very much. Oh he's wonderful. Nice place. Mediations. Yeah. That separate house down there that you know his brother? His son is one hell of a winemaker. Yeah, but the kid is really good. Yeah, it's worth mediating for

01:01:49.000 - 01:02:16.280

with construct because he gave us some line. Yeah gave you the bill and he gave you some wine. So the bar events you're gonna tell us. Well they were for men only because number one there weren't any right women judges and two. Ah while there was

01:02:16.280 - 01:02:50.470

at least one woman who was an attorney in the county off and on during the years there was no active role for women except their secretaries in the law business. So the part thickness were blowouts. The guys drank beer, played poker and all kinds of other

01:02:50.470 - 01:03:33.200

things. One of the more famous bar picnics. I think you were there was right out here. Uh what was wild look? No, I don't want it was was the area of pithy and rude. Remember this used to be the, the, I forget the ranch name was

01:03:33.200 - 01:04:02.910

it Murphy. No, the guy that he was in South America. Yeah. Anyway we got a party out here because they were gonna build Oakmont. It was the last, that was when Lincoln. I had a big tussle link used to like to get a few rounds in

01:04:02.910 - 01:04:31.520

them and he'd get feisty and I remember Frankie Finn do you remember him? Little guy from specific says to me during this event. You're not so hot. You just get all your business from your dad, he's no good. So that re pissed me off. I guess

01:04:31.520 - 01:05:01.700

I had a few too, I threw him over the fence. Well, Frankie was a good friend of links. They were buddies weren't Lincoln if man, I felt sorry for Frankie or something. So London comes out, grabs me so you can't throw him over the fence. Hell

01:05:01.700 - 01:05:27.060

I can't, he's a bastard or words to that effect. And so next thing you know, it's got a haymaker from the ground looking right for jen and I'm ducking and he missed. And as I said, I think I had a few I know I did. So

01:05:27.060 - 01:06:05.870

I counter punch to, it wasn't very long. And then I saw him practically every week in court. So you know, but it wasn't very long. So I walked away five minutes later, Jack Wiener is involved with Lincoln Lincoln. He didn't like the details. Didn't like him

01:06:05.870 - 01:06:38.290

at all. And what the hell his beef with Weiner was. I don't know. But mm somehow that there ended up in pitch battle, longer duration. Yeah. And that's what I was telling you about when I said Mcgoldrick called me and you can't fight without judges. Yeah,

01:06:38.300 - 01:07:05.310

that's what he was saying. Uh it was after that picnic that he did that. Yeah, next monday. So how dare you and he wouldn't listen to any explanations or so ken, if you have some Young lawyer with five or 10 years experiences was coming to you

01:07:05.310 - 01:07:21.900

for advice and said to you, look at, you've been in this game for many, many years, you reach the top of your profession, You got honored by the american board of trial advocates, by the american college of trial lawyers. Um you know I'm the young lawyer

01:07:21.900 - 01:07:45.550

coming to you, I resigned from them, do you? Yeah, I didn't pay my dues Well they wanted $500 for what a dinner in San Francisco once a year. Deal with that. Yeah. No, no not here from college and then call me and say we want you

01:07:45.550 - 01:08:10.280

to, what do you think about uh this female whose name I won't mention here as a nominee and I said bullshit And I'm not paying $500 for one meal and you pay for the meal is $500 to go around and sit down and say Oh I'm

01:08:10.280 - 01:08:31.190

a remember I said at least a boat does something. Yeah. So what advice would you give to young lawyers who are interested in getting involved in doing trial work? If that's gonna in the future, there's only one way you could do it and good work for

01:08:31.190 - 01:08:56.750

the public Kennedy's, you gotta be a D A. Or you got to be a public defender, otherwise you'll never see the inside of a courtroom. You know, I heard a proposal recently, whether it's past, but the state bar is giving some thought to mandating that law

01:08:56.750 - 01:09:15.580

students have as a part of their curricula. Uh, some practical aspects of practicing law, either working in conjunction with a lawyer who has a law practice and kind of seeing what goes on there or you know, kind of on the job training as part of the

01:09:15.590 - 01:09:47.560

requirements of graduated from law school. Would you think of something like that would be helpful? But I don't know why they're getting around the mandating that that was practice. Okay. Seems to me in my youth, you know, I taught it empire college here ah and you

01:09:47.560 - 01:10:16.590

asked me earlier about discovery, that's what I taught, discovery. They had no absolutely nothing on there. All right course list that had anything to do with discovery how you doing, what was available or anything else. And so I started at that course in the summer. Yeah,

01:10:16.590 - 01:10:49.020

I think they're still pursuing it. But you know, the same thing as what you're saying, kind of like an apprenticeship program, you know and anything, which is what they do in England be a good idea. But you know, the one thing in english barristers or solicitors

01:10:49.710 - 01:11:28.310

are good at is drinking when I was in Germany was born Robin, which is a seaport and in 1950 eight, I think there was a collision that ships in the Suez canal Region, one was a tanker and a lot of money at stake and everybody was

01:11:28.310 - 01:11:58.290

insured with Lloyd's. So ah The next port of call for the one ship that was not involved but was the closest standby and witnesses was from Robin. So the ship pulls in and everybody from London wants to take statements and interview with. But the U. S.

01:11:58.290 - 01:12:24.220

Navy has a rule at least it is that time that you can't do that. This was an M. M. M. S. D. S. Ship, you can't do that without must be present. So they had to get permission from Washington to interview all these people. And the

01:12:24.310 - 01:12:59.760

advisor was that I'd be there. So, okay, that meant all these damn english lawyers came over to burn around. Yeah. My secretary Trotter, good looking male, who what's great at church And and I sat through all these interviews and then we had to entertain them. You

01:12:59.760 - 01:13:25.570

know I'm the legal officer so I'm the morale officer. So court martial Square and I are for two years one and the same. You know, if you don't treat the sailors right, you're off limits and if you're off limits you might as well be closed. So

01:13:27.000 - 01:13:55.380

anyway, when they when they all went back to London they wrote this fine letter of accommodation for me and I was shaking my head at the time. Then my God, do they drink? They're terrible. I've got to work at the end of my got that up

01:13:55.380 - 01:13:55.880

here