00:00:00.480 - 00:00:20.320

alright, we're recording, this is with Jack Demeo. Um and well, good afternoon, good afternoon to you. So we wanted to start off, if you could just give us a little bit of your history, you became a member of the California bar in 1959. Right? So why

00:00:20.320 - 00:00:39.290

don't you start, maybe if you give us a little summer of your educational background? Um, what led you into law school? Well, uh the law school that I attended when Hastings college of the Law graduated there in 1958. I'm not really sure what led me there

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other than I had a father who was a lawyer as you know. And uh he talked about it a lot to me and the more he talked to me, the more resistance he got. And finally I decided, well maybe I should give it a shot. And

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I did in the first year of law school, I felt like I was meant to be a garbage man or something else and but I stuck it out and began to really enjoy, it took off from there. So you graduated in 1958 and I understand you

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had an interesting class. I know that one classmate at least of great distinction. Yes, Willie Brown was in our class, as was Ben, Kagoshima. Willie was a janitor and so was Ben um at the school and Ben is a well known Superior Court Judge in San

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Bernardino County and everybody knows Willie Brown and uh I got to know them both very well, not as just classmates, but I ran the law library at night. So they were cleaning up while I was reading, they're still cleaning up and I'm still reading. One of

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the things we've, we've talked about with, other with other people in the county is the history. And one of the things we're very interested in is the history of law Sonoma County. And actually I'd like to go back and talk about the demeo firm and the

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tomato family if you could um, just give us a summary of sure because it's a lot of great history. Well my uncle Charles and my dad both went to uh, well tall after attending the junior college here in Sonoma County and graduated and eventually formed a

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partnership here. But while they did go through school, uh, the interesting part about it all wasn't my dad was a musician and played in many bands and that's how he was able to finance his way through law school. And my uncle was a salesman, he would

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sell various products around and they lived together in an apartment in Berkeley when they were at cow. And of course they're products of the depression too. So they never forgot the value of the dollar and, and the work ethic was there. And uh, I think that's

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where I learned how to work seven days a week from my uncle and my father. But uh they had an interesting relationship Charles was primarily the business transaction guy and probate lawyer. And uh my dad was the litigator and in fact at one time my father

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was a criminal lawyer and defense lawyer. And uh, the day I was born, he was trying to murder case I guess. And uh, I think that's when the doctor looked at me and thought about murder too when I was born. But they usually slapped the kid

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to make him, you know, cry and bring him to life. And the doctor slapped my mother I think when I was born. But, but my dad tried a lot of cases with melon belly early on criminal cases. They had nothing else to do. There wasn't much

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going on for a young lawyers, but you might notice on the way out on the, in the foyer there, there's a photograph of my dad and mel and some other lawyers in a murder case that was trying to here in Sonoma County in 1934. So how

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did it come about that your father worked with? They just knew each other and they had common clients in these criminal cases. And uh, you know, the conspiracy cases and the like. And uh, it was, I'll never forget. My dad told me. He says, well mel's

00:04:49.100 - 00:05:10.370

client went to the joint and mine walked, I have a picture of your father. Um, I can't recall where I got it somewhere on the internet playing banjo. Yes. Is that the instrument that he played? He played, He played uh, primarily the banjo, but he played

00:05:10.370 - 00:05:32.010

guitar, piano and played violin in the symphony as a matter of fact for a number of years and he was very musical and uh mhm. Some of our family have a little talent in that regard. Not much, but some. So when did the firm start? About

00:05:32.020 - 00:05:54.330

1930? For? Yeah. Right in there. Yeah, they were downtown Santa Rosa above the exchange bank, right on the corner of 4th Street and Mendocino. Right. And what, what are your earliest memories of the firm? Um My earliest memories were walking over there from ST Rose school

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after school and waiting, studying over there at offices and waiting to walk home with my dad or my mother to come and pick us up and take us home. And so I was around there as a little kid. And uh did you get to meet other

00:06:12.270 - 00:06:31.720

lawyers? I did, I did tom brown skin was in the same building and lG Hitchcock uh George, Murphy and George and some of the notables, you know, and it was fun to see all those guys now in terms of the hours, the legendary hours that were

00:06:31.720 - 00:06:51.030

kept, what was it? Seven days a week. Well during tax season it was and in those days they did a lot of tax work for farmers in the area and uh I know my dad um worked lots of weekends, lots of weekends and but you know,

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he was one of those guys that couldn't sit still, he just had to be doing something and he loved the law, you know that was that and music, you know those are the two things that he really enjoyed the most. So do you did you have

00:07:10.120 - 00:07:26.360

any experience in the courts? Did he take you to the courts before you became a lawyer? I attended a few uh you know court sessions here and there and then in law school I got more and more interested and would go over to City Hall in

00:07:26.360 - 00:07:49.560

san Francisco and watch a few cases and I'd always like to go and uh James martin Mcguinness was trying a case or mel bell I or some of those guys and Marvin Lewis in the marvelous marv and it's always fun to watch. And uh I don't

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think I had been to too many cases where my dad was involved Early on when I was in law school, I did some in fact I started working with him on the discovery books in 1957 when he put that all together. Right, so I'll come back

00:08:07.280 - 00:08:29.230

to that. But let me ask you about those discovery books. It was the authoritative set of books almost as good as yours. Well, uh it was it was absolutely amazing to me that my dad could carry on a law practice and do what he did with

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those three volumes. Uh It was a labor of love and he just went about it like it was the last thing he was ever gonna do and he had to get it done and and uh you know every year there'd be a supplement rewrite well you

00:08:47.550 - 00:09:02.070

know the story on that and um but he just loved to do it and he got me involved in it and then uh we worked together on it for quite a while and the supplements and then after a while after he was gone, I just didn't

00:09:02.070 - 00:09:19.420

have time to do it anywhere I would have loved to, but it was one or the other. And as you know, the only person that I know that's ever made a living writing books who is Bernie Witkin, the rest of us kind of just you know,

00:09:19.420 - 00:09:39.470

did it to be doing it and you you know, where you knew Bernie would continue very well and my father were quite close friends, right? So how did that come about? I think the two of them just admired each other's work and they were often seen

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at the bar conventions together State Bar and uh they always got enjoyment of the stories that they would tell one another. And uh you know, Bernie, he was a great storyteller and uh it just became a very fond friendship and and I had the good fortune

00:10:01.650 - 00:10:23.200

to be around them from time to time. And Uh in fact Bernie came up for my dad's 80th birthday and then uh then he did his uh presentation posthumously uh when my dad was awarded and honored as a career of distinctions. Um well he was quite

00:10:23.200 - 00:10:46.310

a guy. He actually spoke at my law school graduation a lot of fun. Yes, he was a great one. What are your first members of court in santa rosa? Well uh interesting you should ask. I started in the firm at I think $300 a month whether

00:10:46.310 - 00:11:05.220

I needed it or not. And my uncle said by the way, there's a jury trial in a criminal case, you're gonna try it. And I said, I beg your pardon? He said, yeah, he says it's it's in about six weeks or eight weeks and it turned

00:11:05.220 - 00:11:26.940

out to be uh driving under the influence case. And unbeknownst to me at the time, it was a classmate of mine in high school. So needless to say I didn't sleep much before that trial and got through it. All right. And I thought it was pretty

00:11:26.940 - 00:11:47.260

easy because we got an acquittal. I thought jeez, I'm on the way to fame and Fortune here. And the next morning after the trial before Judge comstock Hilliard comstock and a probate issue. And uh that was upstairs, my case was downstairs in the municipal court and

00:11:47.260 - 00:12:03.730

said, mr demeo would you approach the bench and and so I walked up and he leaned over and he said, I understand that you got an acquittal in your criminal case yesterday and I said yes, your honor. He says, well I don't want to take the

00:12:03.730 - 00:12:21.160

wind out of your sails, but those are easy cases to win. So I said thank you, I'll remember that you're My tail between my legs, my back to my seat. I had about 20 minutes of fame though that night my family was very proud of me.

00:12:22.380 - 00:12:36.740

That should have been. So how long when when you got that first trial, you have been a lawyer for months? I'm sorry, have you been a lawyer for months? Three months, I guess three months. Yeah. Right. So when you started practicing with the firm, which I

00:12:36.740 - 00:13:01.810

assume right after your graduation? Yes, it was mostly criminal or did you in some everything, literally everything. I mean in those days we did bankruptcy, we did family law, criminal, civil tax returns. Everything you could think of. We did it. And uh in those days you

00:13:01.810 - 00:13:23.590

had to do that. There wasn't really anybody that specialized in anything except maybe transportation law san Francisco or you know, some place like that. And uh, but uh, it was very generalized. The three of you, your uncle, your father and yourself, actually at that time there

00:13:23.590 - 00:13:46.260

were probably six lawyers in the firm. Uh, john Fitzgerald scott foster, um Eddie Dermot was there for a while, you know, and charlie joe. Benetti Charles who was there and I kind of had a revolving door for a long time, you know, it was one of

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those firms where young lawyers would start and spend three or four or five years and then go out on their own. And I think they always appreciated the training they got with my dad and my uncle uh, and scott came back uh, foster to our firm

00:14:05.120 - 00:14:25.230

again later on, Jack Winner. I knew Jack from law school and in fact, I talked Wooten Wooten into coming to santa rosa uh and buying practice up here from frank Grady workers comp because rick enjoyed the worker's comp. And Rick turned out to be a first

00:14:25.230 - 00:15:00.240

class guy in that field and good person. So when was that Jack? Oh gosh, that had to be probably mid sixties. How did you know, recruiting law school? Jack Weiner law school with class now. Yeah. So when you first started practicing law, Judge comstock, Judge Judge

00:15:00.240 - 00:15:20.260

Carrie was just about retired. That I think I had appeared before, I maybe once or twice and then he retired and there was Charles Mcgoldrick and uh, and just the two of them. So you had first Judge Geary? Judge Comstock immediately retired and then it was

00:15:20.270 - 00:15:46.120

judge department one and department to, so how was it? And how long was Judge Comstock there? Oh gosh! Um during my time until he actually literally passed away. I I I recall I was one of his honorary pallbearers at his funeral and I'm trying to think

00:15:46.120 - 00:16:09.800

of the year he did pass, but it was probably, Gosh, early 70s, maybe 70, somewhere in there. So what I'd like to do is ask you about the, what was what you heard about appearing before? Judge Geary. And I know there's a history there and we've

00:16:09.810 - 00:16:38.660

had this history come out in um in the story stories that have been told here. Um We were told me stories that he learned from his father and uh told the stories about everything. Well, you know, my understanding was that he was a excellent judge to

00:16:38.660 - 00:17:00.010

appear before if you were defending a person accused of a crime that he had some compassion. And um I also know that at one time his clerk uh whose name will remain anonymous, used to run a few bets for him on the horses that he used

00:17:00.010 - 00:17:20.210

collectively the horses once in a while and I admire him for that because I like to do that too. But no, I I I think all in all, he was probably a very good judge. You know, my father. Yeah, he and my dad had a contentious

00:17:20.220 - 00:17:38.910

election, you know, contested election. But uh I think that uh I think my dad appreciated him as a, as a judge and trying criminal cases before him. You remember about that, that election? I mean, I know how it turned out, but it never happened. I mean,

00:17:38.910 - 00:18:00.150

do you remember your father's decision to I do, I do remember that. Yeah. And I if I'm not mistaken, I think the first And when he ran against Judge Carrie was around 51 or somewhere early 50s. and uh uh just my father just decided. He said,

00:18:00.150 - 00:18:16.480

I think I can, I can be a good judge for this county and I want to give it a shot. And so he ran. And in those days it was very, very difficult to defeat an incumbent. It was almost impossible. But I don't know how well

00:18:16.480 - 00:18:30.240

you knew my dad, he thought he could do about anything he put his mind to. So he took a shot at it. I didn't know well, but I was always impressed as I've told you. I've always been very impressed with him. Thank you. Very well deserved

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reputation. Um It's an interesting time, you know, people have talked to us about the election and there are those that and an affinity for judge com stack those that have an affinity for Judge Gary. Um At the end of the day, everybody talked about how well

00:18:47.810 - 00:19:13.260

the judges did or didn't do. It was a different time where stories about how the judges would sometimes get involved in the case exert themselves perhaps more than I would. Do you have any information about that? Yes, I do. Judge comstock uh was very busy during

00:19:13.260 - 00:19:36.800

the trial asking questions all the time. Um Judge Mcgoldrick, I don't recall him getting involved as much as uh Judge comstock, but I do remember of Charles Mcgoldrick is when you would make an objection and he would rule on it, he would give a lecture to

00:19:36.800 - 00:19:53.950

whomever the ruling was against and it was like a teaching session and a rather gruff one at that. But I, I love the guy, I love trying cases in there because he did study the law and he was usually right. He wanted to make sure everybody

00:19:53.950 - 00:20:12.200

else knew he was too. But I thought he was a fair guy and you know, he had some tough cases before him. I had some malpractice cases in the days when that was a very unpopular thing for someone to sue a doctor. And uh, even though

00:20:12.200 - 00:20:36.130

he knew most of the doctors in the community, he was always highly professional. Both sides, there was no showing of any bias. He was very impartial and professional. I always appreciated that. I asked one question here, historical perspective During the 1st 5 or perhaps 10 years

00:20:36.130 - 00:21:01.050

of your practice, the justice court system, in our county phasing out of the Munich court system coming in or do you have some recollection? Yeah, I do, I do recall both Judges Manker and man being, you know, municipal court judges and practicing before them. And uh,

00:21:01.060 - 00:21:23.080

at the time I remember there was uh, in the justice court judge full wider and um, trying to think of the judge in Sonoma starts with a Grinstead. Judge Grinstead and here's a kick a good guy and was too, at one time in justice court judges,

00:21:23.080 - 00:21:48.550

you know, And uh the Munich court system was starting to become a little more important I think in the county. Uh huh. So then judge Murphy was, wasn't he on the Munich court for a while? Yeah, sure before he was elevated. Oh, and then we had

00:21:48.550 - 00:22:04.940

a whole raft of municipal court judges as you recall. I mean for a long, long time before the unification and there was certainly a lot of resistance to the unification process. Everyone thought that they were, their job was going to be demeaned if in a municipal

00:22:04.940 - 00:22:25.410

court judge became a superior court judge and seemed to all work out just fine in the end. So that was good. So we had the Munich court system that came into being, We've also had justice courts. Do you remember any other justice court judges? Uh, I

00:22:25.420 - 00:22:49.770

think it was judge, justice court judge before he became immune. He did become immune as I recall for a while. Yes. And uh, recall that Petaluma, Yeah. Petaluma, I was of course uh, our good friend down there. Uh, yeah, Raleigh, what do you remember about Raleigh

00:22:50.770 - 00:23:10.700

Raleigh Webb was really, really a difficult judge if you had a criminal defendant, I would call him frequently and say judge Webb, I'm appearing down there. I have this case where my client was given a ticket for going 90 miles an hour On Highway 101 and

00:23:10.740 - 00:23:28.260

he claims that he was going only going 60. He said, Well, that's certainly believable. I'll just dismiss it. Tell him to be more careful next time. And that was kind of Raleigh's M. O. I mean if you knew him and if he trusted you, uh, that

00:23:28.260 - 00:23:51.060

was how he handled his calendar. Ah, he was very interesting by telephone. So then in the Healdsburg area at judge sitting as a justice court judge before he was made of, you know, I don't even remember that part of it. I do remember him well as

00:23:51.060 - 00:24:08.700

a Munich or just because I had many cases in front of frank and as long as you went about your business and got it done before noon before post time you were in good shape. I always tease him about that. I told him when he retired,

00:24:08.700 - 00:24:28.310

he'd probably like to volunteer his time pro bono and del mar area and santa Anita area in Arcadia and some of those places Hollywood park area. But you have to say that that frank frank did a good job and he still does, I guess once in

00:24:28.310 - 00:24:59.790

a while sit around, but not much. But, but oh yeah, he, you run a courtroom. So after the two judges primarily when you started practicing or judges, um, gold rick and uh, and if you could go through the evolution of the bench. Yeah. Then then we

00:24:59.790 - 00:25:21.040

had judge man. uh, and as I recall Manker and Murphy Simon when we start with judge man, what memories of judge man, how was it like being in his courtroom? You know, I always got along with him extremely well and I enjoyed trying cases in there.

00:25:21.040 - 00:25:40.970

He would leave you alone at least he did me and when I tried a case and uh I think he used to enjoy having a good trial in his courtroom. And on the other hand, I remember a few occasions when coffee would come in with his

00:25:41.080 - 00:26:00.600

soup on his tie and try to um uncontested divorce or an annulment and man had turned him down and send him back to get some more evidence and an uncontested manner. So he, he could be a little arbitrary depending on who was appearing before him. I

00:26:00.610 - 00:26:23.560

never had that problem and always appreciated being in there. Uh, and my father didn't seem to get along very well, but uh, if my father lost a case in those days, he felt like it had to have been the judge, I assured him it wasn't the

00:26:23.560 - 00:26:45.370

case that sometimes the facts just weren't good enough to win the case. I think a lot of people sometimes, uh, so after Judge man, the next judge that I think it was my anchor judge maker and I had the privilege of trying cases before and well,

00:26:45.380 - 00:27:02.620

uh, it was, it was okay. Uh Less banker was an interesting guy. I think that depending on the kind of a case you had you would know going in whether you were going to be able to win it or not. You know, he had definite feelings

00:27:02.620 - 00:27:29.080

about certain things. Example, I'm sorry, examples, examples, I had a case involving custody issue and I represented the husband and he took great pride in raising and being with his daughter and uh when the opposition took the position that no father or husband knew how to

00:27:29.080 - 00:27:47.900

take care of a child and therefore that's why that person shouldn't have custody. Uh I had known his predilection towards his feeling on that subject and it worked out great, you know, because I knew how he felt about that. And uh then I I tried a

00:27:47.910 - 00:28:15.460

very hotly contested jury trial in there. Um luna bus. Leroy's sr was one of the defense counsel and Ted Moran of the uh Sedgewick Office was the other defense counsel. And uh it was difficult, you know, because uh I think that he felt that they knew

00:28:15.460 - 00:28:38.110

everything there was to know about everything. And some young kid didn't know what he was doing in there and it was it was a tough case and we lost it and got a reversed on appeal. Uh But in those days you could take an appeal and

00:28:39.030 - 00:28:58.440

you know, you could get it done in a reasonable time for a reasonable amount of money and that isn't the case anymore. As you know it's it's difficult, very difficult are there after judge Maker then was that judge Murphy? I think it was joe Murphy, joe

00:28:58.440 - 00:29:24.150

Murphy could have been a role model for the judges. Trial judges anywhere in the United States of America patient kind impartial, unbiased fair as they come. Uh huh joe was was great. I tried a 7.5 months bench trial before him and got to know him pretty

00:29:24.150 - 00:29:47.060

well. And also some jury cases in there one Against Sport Motor Company. I don't know joe was just a delight you know here before I tried my first jury trial in Sonoma County before judge Murphy and it was lost it and I should have lost it.

00:29:47.070 - 00:30:07.130

Um, but he was, he was indeed a role model and if I think about anyone in the business that I'm in, I think about him incredible respect for him. Jack was there a period of time in your practice where people would use the concept of trial

00:30:07.130 - 00:30:26.590

by ambush meaning that oh absolutely we have a chance to learn a lot about the opposition's case and vice versa. That that was a reality of trial practice. It was, there's no question about it until people started really using the discovery process and understanding how to

00:30:26.590 - 00:30:45.540

use it. It was trial by ambush, you know all the surveillance movies on personal injury cases and of course that was always very interesting, especially one case I had where they were very smug about the case going in and as it was developing until they realized

00:30:45.540 - 00:31:08.800

when they had the surveillance movie on that it was my client's brother and not my client. So that can happen. It's happened a few times, especially when you have twin brothers or twin sisters. You know, that's a great question that tom asked about Discovery going back

00:31:08.870 - 00:31:28.120

to greyhound. And the early days of Discovery, I remember a lawyer that was a senior attorney when I first started practicing um, moses Lasky hated the discovery act because he just wanted to practice trial by english because he got everybody never lost a case if he

00:31:28.120 - 00:31:49.730

could surprise them. That's what he wanted to do right that he had to disclose things you when you started practicing. That was probably more than norm than the exception to to to not disclose a lot. Yeah, that's true. And even though we had to Discovery rules,

00:31:49.740 - 00:32:08.200

most of the lawyers didn't know how to use it properly and you know, it's just over time now it's shame on you if you go in there and get surprised. But I remember I tried a lot of cases against Leroy Senior and uh, he was a

00:32:08.200 - 00:32:18.340

master at it. You know, you have the guy come in out of the blue who were you, you know, and so and so where were you? I was sitting in the back of the pickup. What did you see you? I saw him go through the red

00:32:18.340 - 00:32:42.520

light. Thank you. You're sitting there dumbfounded. Where did this guy come from? But uh, I learned a lot from trying cases against Leroy Senior. I have to say Jack, how many jury trials do you think you've try it? The verdict probably about 35 or 40, something

00:32:42.520 - 00:33:02.570

like that. Probably started a couple of 100 you know, and get them resolved somewhere along the way. Sometimes after a month of trial one with judge benton nellie and ken James had the defense on that when it was a truck case involving a police officer and

00:33:03.500 - 00:33:21.610

went for an entire month before it got settled. But it got settled. You know, Judge Ben Ali was a trial judge and he pounded some sense into both of our heads along the way and Get back and, and talked about judges. We've gotten through Judge Murphy

00:33:22.150 - 00:33:45.250

at some point. It's going to be impractical to go through the judges. But after Judge Murphy was 1966. Yeah, yeah, of course. I also practiced before judge Hyman. Yes, but I'm on this side of the camera. What are your memories of practicing? I enjoyed Judge Hyman

00:33:45.260 - 00:34:05.350

very much and always, uh, loved to try a case in his courtroom and he was always interested, very interested in civil trials and how they went along. And uh, he was a master of being able to do the probate orders while the case was going on

00:34:05.350 - 00:34:30.270

and still listening to everything that was happening. But uh, yeah, uh, I became friendly with ken just, it was a great guy. My dad ran against him as you know, uh, for office and uh, yeah, and uh, he ran against ken for spirit court judge and

00:34:30.280 - 00:34:48.720

ken prevailed and I had a case going out and it happened to land in his courtroom shortly after that a jury trial. And, and everybody was saying, well, aren't you going to, you know, disqualify him? And I said no, I'm not. Why would I do that?

00:34:48.730 - 00:35:05.130

You know? And when I went in there and tried that case, he thanked me, he said, I really appreciated the fact that you, you know, I didn't take anything personally that happened during the election. And uh, case turned out fine and he was great. And uh,

00:35:06.200 - 00:35:28.290

but he, he was, he took great delight in one case that I had where we won a case against Leroy senior a jury trial and Leroy was making fun of the case all the way through. My experts name was George Washington. And of course Leroy Cross

00:35:28.290 - 00:35:48.430

examination was asking him, well, are you uh, sir related to the George Washington? And, and in my George Washington said yes. As a matter of fact, I am says I was in England um not too many years ago and I went to the archives and I

00:35:48.440 - 00:36:15.040

went through everything I could find and yes, we are related and he gave a little history. It was a fun time. That's right. Exactly yeah and that one could have and did hurt him. Jack, do you remember any notable cases or trials that you would be

00:36:15.040 - 00:36:34.420

able to share? Something that was unusual in the county that you were involved with? Well, the Kerbel case was an interesting case, you know where the family uh was accusing each other of everything you could think of and it was a dissolution corporate dissolution matter and

00:36:34.430 - 00:36:52.830

fraud case. That's the one judge Murphy heard and that was a very interesting case. There were three appeals during the course of the trial, you know and went up on ritz and this and then um but there's another case that I tried against bill luke art

00:36:52.830 - 00:37:17.990

that was interesting. Uh I had a woman who was hit in a in an intersection. Uh the other vehicle blew the stop sign and there was an 84 year old man taking his driving test in this other vehicle that struck uh intersection. Broadside collision and the

00:37:17.990 - 00:37:36.780

theory that I had on the case was that the examiner who was sitting in the passenger seat was also a co driver because he was making this poor guy so nervous during the course of the examination and the driving exam that he caused him to hit

00:37:36.780 - 00:37:52.130

the accelerator instead of the brake and went through a stop sign and hit this gal and and the jury, we got an instruction on concurrent cause and all of that, you know, and the jury bought that and thought that that was right, that he had a

00:37:52.140 - 00:38:12.950

certain amount of control over what this old fellow was doing. And uh so we prevailed on that and I'll never forget. This old fellow was represented by Bill Gary and and Bill Lockhart had the state and after Bill's client he had him on direct. I asked

00:38:12.950 - 00:38:36.900

him, I said well now sure the examiner that was in the car with you was was kind and gentle and pleasant to be with wasn't. And he said no. And I said well how how would you describe him? He says he was a bastard said thank

00:38:36.900 - 00:38:54.420

you sir. And the jury's over there, you know, looking at this old guy smiling because when you get that age, he was 84 and you can say most anything you want to in the courtroom. And Bill was getting a kick out of it to Bill Gary.

00:38:54.430 - 00:39:11.720

And poor Bill Luker was not getting a kick out of it. But it was, it was interesting and after the day session, the examiner for the department of motor vehicles asked this old fellow, he says, I have no hard feelings for what you said, He said,

00:39:11.720 - 00:39:28.560

if you don't have a ride home, I'd be glad to drive you home. And the fellow said the hell with you, I heard him in the hallway. Uh, but there have been a lot of, a lot of cases that I've tried that I've, I've had a

00:39:28.560 - 00:39:45.060

lot of fun trying and there's a lot of cases I lost and I didn't think I should have lost. And there's a lot of them I want that. I knew I shouldn't have one, but I did. But uh, it's an interesting dynamic, isn't it? Uh, just

00:39:45.060 - 00:40:01.500

gonna say, I remember one case that got a lot of publicity and I actually get the results. You don't, it was where there was a son of a prominent businessman in this community, was involved in a drag race on the road. There was a co participant

00:40:01.500 - 00:40:24.310

issue. Perhaps that might be one you want to share with. Uh, well, uh, yes, these two young men were both driving fancy hot rods around and broad daylight on steel lane near the on ramp to the freeway and an older gentleman was riding in the back

00:40:24.320 - 00:40:40.230

seat of his daughter's car and his wife was in the front seat and they happened to get in the, and the uh, bull's eye of this little drag race that was going on and there was a collision and the older fellow in the back seat died

00:40:40.850 - 00:40:58.150

as a result of injuries he's sustained. And so Leroy luna bus had one of the defendants and I had the other one and the other one is the one you're thinking it was the son of a prominent developer here in Sonoma County. And uh, so we

00:40:58.150 - 00:41:21.430

had numerous motions and judge Jim jones was the judged on these motions. And after about the third or fourth time we were in there and taking testimony on some of the facts of the incident, we were finally able to uh, persuade the judge that he ought

00:41:21.430 - 00:41:46.130

to dismiss the, the felony charges not to hold them to answer. And it was flushed out as a, uh, as I recall a property damage plea, uh, as a result of what happened. But it could have been a pretty serious situation for these young men. I

00:41:46.140 - 00:42:10.000

remember it well. They didn't know each other actually. They just started gunning their cars around and next thing, you know, drag racing and it was an unfortunate situation. Are there certain opponents that you've had that are notable? Oh, I think so. I think every one of

00:42:10.000 - 00:42:29.180

them had notable seemed like it to me anyway. Uh, you know, you, you just could never underestimate the ability of any lawyer that you tried a case against no matter what you thought going in, you soon found out that they know as much more as good

00:42:29.180 - 00:42:44.770

or better than you are and there's always somebody better than you are. I mean, that's, that's what I tell all the lawyers in our office and lawyers that I talked to that don't ever think you're the best because you're not, there's always somebody better. But uh,

00:42:44.780 - 00:43:10.920

you know, the people that stand out folks like Ed Moran and Leroy Elizabeth senior Bill luke art was good. Excellent lawyer. Uh, any number of folks that have tried cases against, We're all good. Micro Donald, I'm sorry. Michael Donald. Mike. Mike was great. Yeah, yeah. Had

00:43:10.930 - 00:43:28.210

lots of cases with mike. You know, we never had to try one. Uh, we always settled in one out on West third Street. A young man was very seriously injured and it was a case against the city and county Bad Highway Bad Street. It was a

00:43:28.210 - 00:43:46.860

confluence of a county road in the city of santa rosa and it was a bad turn. And the driver of the car was a woman that we found out later who was on drugs at the time and then bringing our young man and uh, this woman's

00:43:46.860 - 00:44:03.970

son home from a football practice and it was night and it was raining and she missed the turn and, but it was a very bad spot, You know, a drop off. Um, we had to develop that case. But it was, it's hard fought, very hard fought

00:44:03.980 - 00:44:27.030

case and finally got it resolved. I had the privilege of serving on a panel with you to discuss ethical issues. And um, I wonder if you'd just take a minute and share your thoughts on How one should practice law to, to those that haven't been doing

00:44:27.030 - 00:44:52.210

it 30 or 40 or more years. Yeah. Well what I found out was, it's a lot easier on everybody, including your own family. Uh, if you just lay it out the way it is not try to hide anything, uh, be fair, make sure if you tell

00:44:52.210 - 00:45:13.040

somebody something that is correct and true and they'll reciprocate most of the time I found and and the result doesn't come out any differently than if you, you know, we're totally uh nasty and uh secretive about everything you did during the course of the handling of

00:45:13.040 - 00:45:34.120

the case. And it seems to work out better for everybody concerned. And I just think the public perceives what we do uh, as a more civilized, uh, processed and, and it was 50 years ago or 60 years ago. And um, most of, most of the folks

00:45:34.120 - 00:45:51.380

that I've dealt with appreciate the fact that you're polite to the other side. That you don't try to take advantage of something you shouldn't take advantage of. You should try to agree on things that are not, you know, really disputed. And uh, it makes life a

00:45:51.380 - 00:46:14.770

lot easier. I found for everybody, including the judges who have to sit there and be tried by everybody in the courtroom. That's being difficult. What about law and motion practice, Jack? Do you have any tips on that? No, the, the tip that I give my guys

00:46:14.770 - 00:46:30.930

is that make it easy for the judge to rule for your side of the case, whatever it takes to make it easy for the judge, it's judge has got 100 of these things in his head at one time. And so you gotta simplify it, you've got

00:46:30.930 - 00:46:52.480

to condense it, gotta get to the point and help, help out, uh, to get it right. You know, I mean, I see all these law and motion all the time. You see them all the time. You wonder why they're there. I know that one of your

00:46:52.490 - 00:47:13.660

passions in the practice of law, in addition to encouraging civility amongst lawyers, is the preservation of the right to a jury trial and more specifically, your going through the chairs of the american border trial advocates, at least locally. And I'm not sure what your national position

00:47:13.660 - 00:47:33.870

was. But could you give uh, your feelings about the american border trial advocates, your role with them and the significance of the right to trial by jury in today's world? Sure. Uh, well, first address the last part of this, the Seventh Amendment and of course our

00:47:33.870 - 00:47:57.630

own state constitution, um, preserving the right to a jury trial. I think it's absolutely essential. It's the thing that levels the playing field. It's what brings everyone's life experience to the table. And frequently juries will see things that we don't see handling the cases that are

00:47:57.640 - 00:48:16.680

very relevant to an outcome, that we just go right over our head, because we're so focused on certain parts of the case and uh, I just think that, you know, if we ever lose that passion for, for a jury to decide cases that it's not gonna

00:48:16.680 - 00:48:36.910

be good and, and it's obviously uh, the jury trial is dwindling, let's face it. It is and I don't like that, but it is what it is. Um, but I mean there's a million quotes, you've all heard them from jefferson and from all of the founding

00:48:36.910 - 00:48:57.940

fathers about how important it was to have the right to a jury trial. And um, we all have to keep believing in it and carrying that torch. But um, you ask about a boat. Uh, it was a big change in my life because uh, I became

00:48:57.940 - 00:49:25.330

surrounded by so many professional, decent, hardworking, great lawyers that you know, you just by osmosis, you started picking up on their traits and how they did things and how it worked. And uh uh, I mean they have a wonderful uh, you know, professionalism and Civility Standard

00:49:25.330 - 00:49:45.490

and uh, I had the pleasure of being the president of the san Francisco chapter, going through the chairs there and being caliber to president, going through the chairs there and I can tell you That I can call someone in Pennsylvania in Philadelphia and ask about where

00:49:45.490 - 00:50:01.740

can I get a court reporter who does this, there is there a medical center nearby. My granddaughter needs a procedure and if they're not in the office, I will get a call within 20 minutes from Someplace from that person or a secretary setting up a time

00:50:01.740 - 00:50:19.010

for them to call me. It's just it's an absolute amazing relationship with those lawyers have with each other. And when you have a case against an abode a guide, I mean he'll fight you to the death. But you know it'll be a very fair fight and

00:50:19.010 - 00:50:38.530

that's all you can ask. You know that's oh you can never ask. Did you ever get involved in the bar picnics or any of the social events? Oh yes. I think I still have many of the skits uh locked up in a safe place where no

00:50:38.530 - 00:51:01.860

one can have access to them. Uh I mean some of the raunchiest skits that you could ever imagine went on during the early years in the uh bar association. And uh of course uh ah some of the lyrics were written by some some of our famous

00:51:01.860 - 00:51:26.410

lawyers like new Dalva gelato and joe R. D. A. Uh past now. Oh my god. Anyway he was a master joe maddox. He was the master and writing lyrics to these, you know really great standard tunes and we all sing in love and uh we would

00:51:26.420 - 00:51:47.830

pick on you know different lawyers every year characters in the community. Uh And of course would always send our only uh woman lawyer uh in the bar association flowers and candy to stay away and not come to this horrible event because we didn't want to embarrass

00:51:47.830 - 00:52:06.510

her. But you know you were talking about uh I remember the family have some property up in Tahoe at one time. There still well, well my dad, yeah, so one day I forget what it was. I was chatting with him about what you do over the

00:52:06.510 - 00:52:23.560

weekend or something. You know he was always so friendly and he described for me a weekend that he had spent up in and he was proud of the fact that he had modified a wheelbarrow so that he could move around a lot with his typewriter on

00:52:23.560 - 00:52:41.010

it and continue to be able to work and yet take advantage of the sun and I have this when I see his picture outside I could just see him, I can do this. I can make this a very beneficial vacation and still get those chapters done

00:52:41.010 - 00:52:55.690

on the well he would literally do that and he had this thing like a desk and then it had a, you know a shade over the top so that and then he could move it around on wheels so that if the sun was harry would be

00:52:55.690 - 00:53:12.390

over there under the tree. And it was, it was quite an interesting thing. People would stop and ask him about. He should have been an inventor actually. He used to love to invent all this little stuff, you know use around the office and he would index

00:53:12.390 - 00:53:28.430

the index to the index. We'd wonder where some of this stuff was. I know where I, where I, he would see my desk and just panic. You know, he said, how can you possibly find anything on this desk? Don't touch a thing. I know where everything

00:53:28.430 - 00:53:49.500

is. Just like, you know, where your index is. But yeah, he was, he was a piece of work. I'll tell you considering your reputation and activity outside of Sonoma County in the Bay Area statewide. And the like, can you say something about the general reputation of

00:53:49.500 - 00:54:05.500

the bench on the bar during the period period of time that you have been active in practice as far as where we stand in the eyes of other counties, lawyers and other counties, judges and other counties and things of that nature? Well, I can tell you

00:54:05.500 - 00:54:23.930

that. I said it publicly more than once that I wouldn't trade any of our lawyers for any other lawyers in any other county man for man. I think we've got a wonderful bar and I think we've got a wonderful bench. We've been very, very lucky, uh,

00:54:23.940 - 00:54:42.710

with our judges that we've had here over the years. I think, I think we're the envy of many, many counties that no, you know, have an understanding what goes on in this county and the cooperation between bench in the bar and they're just marveled at it.

00:54:42.720 - 00:55:01.880

You know, almost most judges and other lawyers. They said, you do what, you know, we tell them what we do up here and uh I just think we're in, we're in uh heaven here in terms of court heaven, you know, we've we've got it all in

00:55:01.880 - 00:55:21.060

Sonoma County and I'm very thankful for that and practice around a lot of places. And I always say there's no place like Home Dorothy and I agree with, I remember, I think it was one of your wasn't a passion. It was a strong feeling that you

00:55:21.060 - 00:55:35.070

had and Jack King when you were the to go to guys when there was a problem of the spirit court practice and perhaps issues between the bench and the bar. The two of you would put your heads together as a plaintiff and defense lawyer and try

00:55:35.070 - 00:55:55.650

to solve it and then go back to the bar and the judges um was the single judge assignment concept, something that you felt strongly about over the years. Yeah, I did because I felt that it was obviously more efficient and every way you can think of,

00:55:55.660 - 00:56:14.490

you get the case from the beginning, you see all the discovery here, all emotions. Um and it was not an easy concept to to sell for a long, long time. Um, but of course the federal courts have been doing it for quite a while. And um

00:56:14.500 - 00:56:34.340

finally, uh the judges here said, well, let's give it a try. Now we have it, Although I'm sure it isn't, you know, 100%, I mean, Judge Nadler, you had another case in trial and and judge wick was open obviously, uh, if the parties are willing to

00:56:34.340 - 00:56:55.960

do that, why it made sense to move the other case and get going, you know, so exactly. I remember when I started here, we had five year weights to get a civil case out of our cases are getting out first time up. That is something that

00:56:56.020 - 00:57:20.260

we never achieved before. You know, I really have to feel too that the physical separation of the Criminal Court house from the civil area was absolutely a big part of being able to get cases tried and uh and that took a long time to happen, but

00:57:21.540 - 00:57:42.990

a lot of fun, wasn't it? Well, that's right. Yeah, I see all your friends and enemies and the D. A. Would come in and you served the whole courthouse in every courtroom and and uh with every little crime and misdemeanor you could think of. And the

00:57:42.990 - 00:58:02.550

civil litigants were just out out of luck, that's all there was to it in the bar picnics. Just one last question on that. I understand that you're at least your father was involved in the play, he would play music and so did I. He and I

00:58:02.550 - 00:58:19.940

were the, we were the orchestra most of the time and uh believe it or not, joe Murphy had a pretty good voice. So he always had a starring role and a genie who always had a great voice and del pejeta would write the lyrics and do

00:58:19.940 - 00:58:40.280

most of the laughing. Uh, I have to say that uh, the bar association looked forward to those picnics and the skits. We'd have the golf game in the afternoon and the barbecue. Then there'd be a few dice games or card games and then the skit, you

00:58:40.280 - 00:59:02.350

know, everyone hung around for that. And uh, some of the folks that would go to those kits would end up uh, disabled for two or three days after. I don't know if you recall some of the incidents tom and well, I remember not sure we could

00:59:02.350 - 00:59:18.200

say all the day, well, it was a public record, but I remember somebody who had left the bar association picnic went off the road and it was followed by a lawsuit against Ford Motor, I believe for something wrong with the brakes. And of course, anybody that

00:59:18.200 - 00:59:36.270

had asked the driver where he had been for the previous eight or 10 hours might have been a tough product liability trial, didn't it? You know? I'm not sure. I'm not sure if it did or not. But I do know, I tell you, I can tell

00:59:36.270 - 00:59:56.350

you, I remember another one where the, where the district attorney was bringing home one of his deputies who had had an accident in his car and bleeding from the head and all over the place. And both of them had had a few and and the district

00:59:56.350 - 01:00:15.190

attorney drove up to this gentleman's house and knocked on the front door and stood up underling in the Da's office here. He was bleeding all over the place in this fellow's wife came to the door and started really thrashing on the district attorney for causing all

01:00:15.190 - 01:00:37.320

this problem. And of course he was just bringing him home gratitude version or additional part part of it that made it look like he was hurt worse than he was. The story was he had a whole pot of rabri always left over from the dinner. Oh

01:00:37.320 - 01:00:58.870

that was from, that was another and spilled them on himself on himself so that he was with the red sauce marinara instead of the blood, you know, do you remember Larry Swenson? Larry was a wonderful guy. Did you know him well? Larry was losing his vision

01:00:58.870 - 01:01:17.420

as you know more and more so. And um my car, I couldn't get it started after one of the skids. So Larry offered to take me home and his Volkswagen and I honestly God, I didn't think we were ever gonna make it who were everywhere except

01:01:17.420 - 01:01:29.160

on the road and he hadn't been drinking. He's just the poor guy was just losing his, I say, but it was so kind of him to offer to take me home. I live down in the country and and another time I had to have my wife

01:01:29.160 - 01:01:44.910

come and pick me up because my car uh pooped out on me at the bottom of the hill from the Fountain Grove. Remember the old Fountain Grove? And there was this old seedy motel at the bottom of the hill and that's as far as my car

01:01:44.910 - 01:02:08.020

had made it. So my wife was absolutely certain that I had been holed up in this seedy motel. Somebody I couldn't talk around for a long time after the bar picnics. There was a Redwood Emperor Empire, It was the Redwood Empire trial with and as I

01:02:08.020 - 01:02:32.880

recall, we had plaintiffs and defense counsel together. We did it together. Yes, we did. Yeah, I enjoyed that so much. So did I. I thought that was a great organization. And then, uh, somebody had the idea that we were releasing too much information to the defense

01:02:32.880 - 01:02:45.200

side of it. And the only reason they were there was to find out what we were up to and all of this stuff. And in fact, I remember, I don't know if you were there at the cattlemen's when Bruce walk up came up one night to

01:02:45.200 - 01:03:00.800

give a talk to what he thought was all plaintiff lawyers in this group. And he pulled me aside and he says, I'm not giving the talk. I was gonna give, He says, I'm going to talk about something else that's, but I'm not giving my other talk.

01:03:00.800 - 01:03:15.710

He says, I don't want to, I don't want the defendants to know. We're thinking about. And from that point forward, it kind of drifted over to just the plaintiffs group and then it splintered off. Well, you remember I went into the Sonoma County trailers and then

01:03:16.290 - 01:03:43.740

the adjunct to the state group and it's kind of just faded out. Unfortunately. I don't remember who it was, but one of those regular meetings, there was, so, a lot of people had a couple of drinks, but there was a fistfight, wasn't there? Uh, I don't

01:03:43.740 - 01:04:05.900

remember that. I remember a fist fight at a bar meeting out at the country Club, a court reporter and a lawyer. And I want to remember a judge and a lawyer going at it at another bar picnic and uh, a judge and a lawyer, well, the

01:04:05.900 - 01:04:27.280

lawyer is still living. I don't mind telling you it was a link man and Ken James. We stopped it. It didn't, it didn't get that far. You know, uh, you know, the interesting thing is when you mentioned the difference in the philosophies of plaintiff and defense

01:04:27.280 - 01:04:48.490

lawyers, you know, over the last 10 or 15 years, there's actually been a working together between the association and defense counsel C. A. O. C. Uncommon objective legislatively. The preservation the right to jury trial, no fault insurance. What, 10 or 20 years ago, I guess now.

01:04:48.500 - 01:05:07.790

So when there's a common viewpoint that affects, you know, the practice of the law together. The fact that you're a plaintiff or defense lawyer doesn't mean a lot. And, and you know, we have such cooperation in our local bar about participation, giving opposite viewpoints on litigation.

01:05:07.790 - 01:05:34.150

In fact for years, wasn't you? And fred that gave the viewpoints of a lot of work. There's, there's one quick story that you should know about in uh, when they were thinking about uh, no fault and thinking about having auto cases heard before a commission. When

01:05:34.150 - 01:05:51.860

I was a very young lawyer, my father was invited to this meeting in Monterey to discuss that subject between the plaintiffs and the defense lawyers and he couldn't make it. He said, do you mind going? So I drove down there and all the plaintiff's lawyers and

01:05:51.860 - 01:06:09.380

all the defense lawyers from the top to the bottom were there, the big guys were there And you have never seen a group come together and be so cohesive about a subject in your entire life. That was amazing to me to see that happen. And that

01:06:09.380 - 01:06:30.520

was like 19, what, 60 or something like that or 61 maybe when all this came about and they blew it a partner, they packed a lot of power in those days, both the plaintiffs in the defense side. So this is not gonna happen on our watch.

01:06:30.520 - 01:06:51.370

And uh, it didn't, of course it came up later again, but you know, I know that a significant part of your practices, medical negligence work and Uh, was the passage of the Micro Bill in 1976. Was that a serious break order, if you will, uh, in

01:06:51.370 - 01:07:14.240

that area of litigation? Well, it was probably the most significant event in my legal career that that happened that uh, I think was so detrimental to people who are seriously injured as a result of negligence, professional negligence in Um at least the state of Texas had

01:07:14.240 - 01:07:35.820

the foresight to index the, the amount of money it was 250 for them as well, then it's now that's slightly over $1 million dollars today by indexing it. And the value in today's dollars of the 250s about 60,000. So, I mean, it's just, it's tragic. It

01:07:35.820 - 01:07:54.140

really is. I mean, you and I can run over somebody in the crosswalk. There's no limit. The doctor can sever an artery and cause somebody a lifelong uh problem. And uh, you have to 50 other than economics. So it's just, it's just something wrong with that.

01:07:54.140 - 01:08:13.990

And uh, nobody's ever been able to get the legislature to do anything about it. There's too much power, Too much money. You know, it's interesting when you mentioned Willie Brown and his career and the power that he had statewide barry keane was our assemblyman at the

01:08:14.000 - 01:08:36.780

time. I started at the school board and then went to statewide offices and he was actually basically the father of the micro bill struck me as being a little odd giving his general political viewpoint and remember that, you know, as far as power in the state

01:08:36.780 - 01:08:55.330

of California, who was, you know, the governor, Willie Brown and barry keane truthfully for many, many years. And if you wanted something done, that's where he went. And So micro got past and we've lived with it for one now, 50 years. So it's very sad. Barry

01:08:55.340 - 01:09:17.890

Barry actually worked for me for about two years or three years after he left the district attorney's office. And uh, you know, for uh, a democrat who would one would think had Democratic Party principles. Um, that was an odd move on his part. I thought, you

01:09:17.890 - 01:09:48.390

know what? And I still love barry. I think he's a great guy. So I just want to thank you, this is a real honor to, To have you do this. And certainly I appreciate you taking time away from the practice memories down here. Well, thank, thank

01:09:48.390 - 01:10:08.410

you. Only practicing law for 50 years plus, right? 53. Uh, well, I hold you in high regard and tom have always held in high regard and um, it's a privilege for me to just talk to you here for a while. So thank you